It has been my experience that the answer is no. We all know and understand that HaShem is order, and that all things that truly show His Light and Love are as well. I ask that if you can't follow the simple request placed before you, please don't post on this thread.
Any debate on the Laws of HaShem, goes off the deep end, with passage after passage being posted. In just one post we may find as many as 15 if not more. This is an unproductive way to handle this, or any topic. As it can leave any one wishing to reply, with little option, Leave a post that is pages long, or leave a vague post filled with even more passages and little substance. This is what leads to endless debate with no answers, as well talking in circles.
For this reason, it is always best to look at ONLY ONE PASSAGE at a time. Now once that passage is called up, Both sides must look at it from both sides. i.e. Be ready and willing to argue the points you don't follow.
If the only thing we do is push one side of a topic, we fail to really look at the other side, and in most cases, fail to even hear the other side. So here is my propose, it is open to every one that truly wishes to open their hearts and minds to TRUTH. Not my truth, not your truth, and not your churches truth. Rather BIBLICAL TRUTH.
As almost all study of OT vs NT is centered around the Law of HaShem, (Know here after as TORAH) the first thing that must be found is, "How valid is Torah today?" Not an easy answer for many.
So here we go.
When it comes to Torah, the one passage that comes up more than other is Mat. 5:17. So lets look closely at this passage.
(NLT) Mat 5:17 “Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.
(KJ same passage) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
One must always take note of the passage opening. Here we are told not to think that something is Yeshua's reason for coming. From that we are safe to say that anything that follows, (until a change of topic) is what we shouldn't see as coming topass. After all He just THINK NOT, or in my words, (Don't put words in my mouth, or forget the important words I use.)
So let's do a full brake down of this passage. Looking at from both sides.
First we have THINK NOT, or Don't misunderstand. Both give the same thought behind the words. Just tell us not to entertain the idea that Yeshua came to do any of the following. So what is it he didn't come to do?
(KJ ) I am come to destroy the laws or the prophets:
(NLT) I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets.
If we read this passage for what it tells us, rather than what we wish it to say, we find that the Torah, and the Prophets are placed together. From this one should conclude that they work together, and we can not remove one from this passage with any hope of keeping the whole context of the passage.
Also, if we remove any part of this, then apply the new contextual meaning to the full passage, as well as any that may follow, do we not teach a lie, based on what we hope is true? SO any teaching on this passage must hold true to both Torah and prophets. With this understanding, one must walk carefully. If we say Yeshua removed the Law, nailed it to the cross, and so on, We also say that He has removed the prophecies that have not been fulfilled. Like His second coming, Judgment of all man kind, and many others.
(KJ) I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
(NLT) No, I came to accomplish their purpose
Now the most common word to be pushed by them that stand in opposition to Torah is the word FULFILL. So lets take a look at that word.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fulfill Has this to say.
a : to put into effect : execute He fulfilled his pledge to cut taxes.
b : to meet the requirements of (a business order) Their order for more TVs was promptly fulfilled.
c : to measure up to : satisfy She hasn't yet fulfilled the requirements needed to graduate.
d : to bring to an end she came to install herself and fulfill her time at the house— Willa Cather
2a : to develop the full potentialities of He has a lot of talent, but he hasn't really fulfilled his potential.
b : to convert into reality a sense of the failure of life to fulfill its ultimate expectations— Leslie Rees
3 archaic : to make full : fill her subtle, warm, and golden breath … fulfills him with beatitude— Alfred Tennyson
Now in this we find both sides, we find that it can mean to being to an end, yet we must ask, has it all been brought to an end? Are we wrong to say Yeshua will be coming back? After all He has brought to an end the Prophets, then that would also mean all prophecy has been fulfilled, or removed as they no longer hold meaning. i.e. there is no need for them.
Yet if we now look at this from a more contextual view, we know He must return for the WORD to hold truth. After all if any part of what the WORD tells us is not true, then we place our salvation in the hands of sin. Just saying.
We also know from the fact that Yeshua must come again, we must understand that He is still working to FULFILL scripture.
On the flip side.
At best I can here, so I leave something our please let me know.
This passage is clear that Jesus FULFILLED the Law, nailed it the cross, and removed it. He know that man kind can not live up to it's standards, and that to be held to that standard would leave us all devoid of hope. The passage is clear in that it tells us Jesus removed law. As is clear in your own use of Webster.
I will gather you and your children from east and west.
Isa 43:6 I will say to the north and south,
'Bring my sons and daughters back to Israel
from the distant corners of the earth.
End quote
Here is my quote to support yours (I think):
I have LOTS more, but here are some:
Isaiah 56:8
The Lord GOD, who gathers the dispersed of Israel, declares, "Yet others I will gather to them, to those already gathered."
And just before Isaiah 11:11-12 below , in Isaiah 11:6, the verses speaks of the wolf and the lamb dwelling together which mirrors Rev.5:1-14 , which also mirrors Isaiah 65:25, possibly Micah 7:17 and Rev. 12:9 speaking about the snake, eating dust, thrown to the ground..kinds mirrors Genesis when Yahuwah says to the serpent, you will eat dust. End from the beginning yet again.
Isaiah 11:11-12
And it shall come to pass>>> in that day<<<<<, that the Lord shall >>>>>>set his hand again the second time<<<<< to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
Isn't that who Peter and James were addressing as the diaspora, elect or also referred to as exiles ? ..those scattered abroad?
1 Peter 1:1
King James Bible
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
James 1:1
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion: Greetings
Luke 18:7
Will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry out to Him day and night? Will He continue to defer their help?
John 7:35
At this, the Jews said to one another, "Where does He intend to go that we will not find Him? Will He go where the Jews are dispersed among the Greeks, and teach the Greeks?
Acts 2:9
Parthians, Medes, and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
The famous Mt.24 that people love to split in half:
Matthew 24:22
If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved.>>>> But for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened.<<<<
Daniel (in chapter 12), Jesus (in Mathew 24- who referred directly to "things spoken of by Daniel the prophet") and John (in Revelation 7) all talk about the “Great Tribulation” or the “Time of Trouble such as never was”
So my question is: Are there any parts in the WORD that extend on into history and speak of events in the middle ages and even today? Seems it is all past but I could be wrong. Not the first time. I seem to take Paul out of context lately.
I know prophecy from a futurist standpoint and so my guess is, you are going to say "yes".
Your question is a rather sound one. I will give the short answer, as there will be sure to a lot of returning this topic.
"""""""So my question is: Are there any parts in the WORD that extend on into history and speak of events in the middle ages and even today? Seems it is all past but I could be wrong. Not the first time. I seem to take Paul out of context lately.""""""""
You are right the answer is yes. If we look at just what has already been called out, we can see this.
Isa 10:22 But though the people of Israel are as numerous as the sand of the seashore, only a remnant of them will return. The LORD has rightly decided to destroy his people.
Looking back in time, we find the Inquisition. This was around the mid 1200"s in France, Moved into the mid 1400"s expanding into Spain, North Africa, and every place the RCC held any power. In Spain the target was mostly Jewish and Muslim peoples. Many lost everything they had, to confiscation, and were then deported with noting. Of them many of the Jewish people went back to Israel. One found favor with the queen and was given 3 ships. I am sure know a little about Columbis, and his trip. What many don't know as it never really told in the USA, is that he was Jewish, and everyone in his company were as well.
So we now have the first part of this, only a small remnant
returned to Israel, many converted, to save what earthly things they held dear.
Then come Hitler. His actions killed 6 million Jewish people. Though it has not looked into, many teachings on why abound. One that seems to fit with sound Biblical doctrine is, The Jewish family's that Hitler had ended, (in other words that family's blood line ended in the extermination camps.) This would seem to fulfill the second part. HaShem in his mercy and loving kindness, would not bring a punishment on any that had not turned away from Him.
That one passage covers many years, many actions by people's that held contempt in their hearts for the Jewish people.
Next
""""""One second coming/Day of the Lord at the end of the Old Covenant age when the Lord vindicated the Martyrs"""""
We will got to the New covenant and what Word tells us at a later date. Yet I do feel that we must look at this last part. You see when I opened the door of the second part of this feast, and what it holds for Israel, I did open that door.
You place before me a teaching that simply wouldn't hold water, even if pushed to the bottom of the ocean. Yoou oncce said you didn't care what time frame was placed on scripture. (If I misunderstood that I am sorry) That however only shows a willingness to forgo sound teaching, in-order to hold on to what one wishes to follow.
We must always keep in mind that the book of Rev. was written most likely in mid 70 AD. The reason knowing when something is written is to stay with in the true text, and follow the time line we are given. Rather than dismiss the time line, and risk perverting the Truth given in the Word. It must be understood and adhered to strictly. At lest as best we can.
Rev 7:14 And I said to him, “Sir, you are the one who knows.” Then he said to me, “These are the ones who died in the great tribulation. They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and made them white.
Understanding when this was written, it becomes hard to place it in a time that came before then. 66 AD simply doesn't work with this. When we look around the world today, we find Islam killing people just because they hold to the faith in HaShem. I make this point as we will soon find ourselves in the middle of Rom, 11. So the rest can hold off until we get there. For now, if we say that all the mattered were from 33 AD to 66Ad, and that this was fulfilled, you leave others down a road you really don't want to go down. You see, if you teach people that it has been, when the events of Rev. 13 do take place, they will fall in and give their soils over by worshiping the beast, and taking the mark.
The next one I will have fun with, and make it real short.
""""""" Third Temple is Y'shua's body according to Y'shua himself in John 2:19 and by also our body according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 6:19""""""
Let us take a look at something from Dan. 9:27. I am only going to look at one part, to make clear that this will take place at a future time. Most likely not in my life time, yet as we will see in this study, it is most likely going to come about in the next 100 - 105 years, if not sooner. So please keep this in mind.
Dan 9:27 The ruler will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings.....
At no time in history has there been any form of 7 year covenant made with Israel. I use the word covenant here as the Hebrew word used is, bĕriyth. Rome never made nor offered to make any form of covenant. True to Romes form they let any nation they had under their control govern them self to a point. Though that was just a way to maintain order. So to place this on them is in error.
I am sure this has brought a lot to mind, and placed even more questions in your mind. It is however my prayer, that you will look at this closely, and take your time in doing so.
One last thing.
2Th 2:4 He will exalt himself and defy everything that people call god and every object of worship. He will even sit in the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God.
If as you say there will be no earthly temple, answer the following.
Will this person, sit in the temple that is Yeshua, or in the body of man that is a temple?
If yes to any part, how will there be offerings, (i.e. sacrifices) offered inside ones body?
Dan 9:27 The ruler will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings.....
At no time in history has there been any form of 7 year covenant made with Israel. I use the word covenant here as the Hebrew word used is, bĕriyth. Rome never made nor offered to make any form of covenant. True to Romes form they let any nation they had under their control govern them self to a point. Though that was just a way to maintain order. So to place this on them is in error.
End quote
Hold your horses !
Are you sure about no wheatie- treaties between Rome and Jews. ??
Y'shua pointed to the book of Daniel in Mt. 24 as previously stated and I take His word for it over any contemporary jewish thoughts or writings..so then I do my homework and look to see if ANY historical events confirm the WORD.
Let's take a look-see..
After three and a half years of "very great peace and prosperity" as a Roman province, the governor of Herod's temple in Jerusalem along with the temple priests agree to discontinue the service of making sacrifices and offerings on behalf of Caesar (Daniel 9:27). This occurred about a week before the festival of Xylophory. The breaking of the Jewish-Roman treaty was the "true beginning" of the Jewish rebellion against the Roman Empire.
Houston, we have a problem!!! It's called the Jewish Revolt!
Let's continue..
This was a brazen display of hostility toward Roman Emperor Nero as the Jews also "forbid even their oblations to be received."
Gessius Florus (Roman procurator of Judea from 64 until 66 AD), who "by design was to have a war kindled" against the Jews on purpose. Florus had previously stolen "seventeen talents out of the sacred treasure" at which time the citizens of Jerusalem "ran together to the temple, with prodigious clamors, and called upon Caesar by name, and besought him to free them from the tyranny of Florus" (John 19:12-15). Procurator Florus (appointed by emperor Nero- who was the man of sin) afterward whipped and crucified 3,600 men, women, and children in retaliation.
Your next question was:
If as you say there will be no earthly temple, answer the following.
Will this person, sit in the temple that is Yeshua, or in the body of man that is a temple?
If yes to any part, how will there be offerings, (i.e. sacrifices) offered inside ones body?
Jesus turning to them said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the b r e a s t s that never gave s u c k!’ (stupid censor on CDFF) Then they will begin to say to the mountains, ‘Fall on us’; and to the hills, ‘Cover us’. For if they do this when the wood is green, what will happen when it is dry?”
See how it all fits His very words? \
And here in A.D.70 on the Day of the Lord. (Remember Y'shua told them to flee to the mountains)
"Most of the slain were peaceful citizens, weak and unarmed, and they were butchered where they were caught. The heap of corpses mounted higher and higher about the altar; a stream of blood flowed down the Temple's steps, and the bodies of those slain at the top slipped to the bottom.
When Caesar failed to restrain the fury of his frenzied soldiers, and the fire could not be checked, he entered the building with his generals and looked at the holy place of the sanctuary and all its furnishings, which exceeded by far the accounts current in foreign lands and fully justified their splendid repute in our own.
While the Temple was ablaze, the attackers plundered it, and countless people who were caught by them were slaughtered. There was no pity for age and no regard was accorded rank; children and old men, laymen and priests, alike were butchered; every class was pursued and crushed in the grip of war, whether they cried out for mercy or offered resistance.The Temple Mount, everywhere enveloped in flames, seemed to be boiling over from its base; yet the blood seemed more abundant than the flames and the numbers of the slain greater than those of the slayers. The soldiers climbed over heaps of bodies as they chased the fugitives."` from Josephus-Jewish Wars and also History of Rome by Victor Duruy, Vol .V (1883)
All of this has been simmering in the back on my mind from the WORD of Yahuwah, to Jospehus Jewish Wars to Edgar Allan Poe's, A Tale of Jerusalem to internet research and the list goes on. .
It all comes together in my female brain John. Don't try and figure it out. I gave up long ago.
After losing the last reply due the word Cl!m@x in a quote from SCRIPTURE, I am going to try to redo this with a shorter answer. Though I will say I am more app to ask if we can more this to email, so I can quote Scripture and not have it deleted.
"""""Are you sure about no wheatie- treaties between Rome and Jews. ??. """"""
100% sure. Lets look at the web sight you got this info from. the Address is,https://scienceandbibleresearch.com/treaty-broken-sacrifice-offering-discontinued.html.
You gave this tidbit from it.
""""""Gessius Florus (Roman procurator of Judea from 64 until 66 AD), who "by design was to have a war kindled" against the Jews on purpose. Florus had previously stolen "seventeen talents out of the sacred treasure" at which time the citizens of Jerusalem "ran together to the temple, with prodigious clamors, and called upon Caesar by name, and besought him to free them from the tyranny of Florus" (John 19:12-15). Procurator Florus (appointed by emperor Nero- who was the man of sin) afterward whipped and crucified 3,600 men, women, and children in retaliation""""""
You should have added the following. I will not explain in an open forum the reason why, though you will get am email informing you.
The terms of the agreement between Rome and Jerusalem later came to include the performance of "sacrifices twice every day for Caesar, and for the Roman people" at the temple in Jerusalem. Emperor sacrifices were in effect during the reigns of Tiberius (14-37 AD) and Caligula (37-41 AD) and continued up until 66 AD during the reign of Nero (54-68 AD).
As you can see, there is reason to question what was ended. Was it the sacrifices for the emperor as can be concluded from the text, or was it all of them?
Also as I thought I made clear, we must look at every passage that deals with this topic. Had you backed up just a bit in Dan. 9 you would have seen this.
Dan 9:26 "After this period of sixty-two sets of seven, the Anointed One will be killed, appearing to have accomplished nothing, and a ruler will arise whose armies will destroy the city and the Temple. The end will come with a flood, and war and its miseries are decreed from that time to the very end.
Dan 9:27 The ruler will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. And as a (here is the word I had to remove goes) to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the fate decreed for this defiler is finally poured out on him."
As you will note this people has some things to do. They must destroy the temple first. Then they put an end to the sacrifices. Nice try, only as I said, it won't hold water even at the bottom of the ocean.
You named Josephus, thank you. If you have His complete works, then you will find in Book6 The Jewish Wars, chapter 4, page 895 right hand column, that Titus gave orders not to harm the temple. When he was told it was on fire on the next page, he ran out to have the fire put out. Not the actions of a man that wanted it destroyed. We will get into that in depth later, and look at just who did what and how it fits.
For now I do hope you can see that you are working to fit Scripture to your teaching, and not fitting you teaching to scripture.
Next you asked.
""""""Your were saying??""""
This in reply to my question,
Will this person, sit in the temple that is Yeshua, or in the body of man that is a temple?
If yes to any part, how will there be offerings, (i.e. sacrifices) offered inside ones body?
So let me try it this way.
If one of the 3rd temples is Yeshua, how will he sit in Him? Will he skin Him and make a tent?
Or is it the other 3rd temple that is the body of Yeshua, (i.e. all that follow the Laws of HaShem, and the faithfulness of Yeshua. That would work better for him, after all the more people you skin to make this tent, the easier it will be to fit inside it.
Well if I don't quote scripture word for word as it is in the NLT it will post it that's good to know. Though it does make me more than a bit uneasy about this sight.
Not the first time. I seem to take Paul out of context lately.
