It has been my experience that the answer is no. We all know and understand that HaShem is order, and that all things that truly show His Light and Love are as well. I ask that if you can't follow the simple request placed before you, please don't post on this thread.
Any debate on the Laws of HaShem, goes off the deep end, with passage after passage being posted. In just one post we may find as many as 15 if not more. This is an unproductive way to handle this, or any topic. As it can leave any one wishing to reply, with little option, Leave a post that is pages long, or leave a vague post filled with even more passages and little substance. This is what leads to endless debate with no answers, as well talking in circles.
For this reason, it is always best to look at ONLY ONE PASSAGE at a time. Now once that passage is called up, Both sides must look at it from both sides. i.e. Be ready and willing to argue the points you don't follow.
If the only thing we do is push one side of a topic, we fail to really look at the other side, and in most cases, fail to even hear the other side. So here is my propose, it is open to every one that truly wishes to open their hearts and minds to TRUTH. Not my truth, not your truth, and not your churches truth. Rather BIBLICAL TRUTH.
As almost all study of OT vs NT is centered around the Law of HaShem, (Know here after as TORAH) the first thing that must be found is, "How valid is Torah today?" Not an easy answer for many.
So here we go.
When it comes to Torah, the one passage that comes up more than other is Mat. 5:17. So lets look closely at this passage.
(NLT) Mat 5:17 “Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.
(KJ same passage) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
One must always take note of the passage opening. Here we are told not to think that something is Yeshua's reason for coming. From that we are safe to say that anything that follows, (until a change of topic) is what we shouldn't see as coming topass. After all He just THINK NOT, or in my words, (Don't put words in my mouth, or forget the important words I use.)
So let's do a full brake down of this passage. Looking at from both sides.
First we have THINK NOT, or Don't misunderstand. Both give the same thought behind the words. Just tell us not to entertain the idea that Yeshua came to do any of the following. So what is it he didn't come to do?
(KJ ) I am come to destroy the laws or the prophets:
(NLT) I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets.
If we read this passage for what it tells us, rather than what we wish it to say, we find that the Torah, and the Prophets are placed together. From this one should conclude that they work together, and we can not remove one from this passage with any hope of keeping the whole context of the passage.
Also, if we remove any part of this, then apply the new contextual meaning to the full passage, as well as any that may follow, do we not teach a lie, based on what we hope is true? SO any teaching on this passage must hold true to both Torah and prophets. With this understanding, one must walk carefully. If we say Yeshua removed the Law, nailed it to the cross, and so on, We also say that He has removed the prophecies that have not been fulfilled. Like His second coming, Judgment of all man kind, and many others.
(KJ) I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
(NLT) No, I came to accomplish their purpose
Now the most common word to be pushed by them that stand in opposition to Torah is the word FULFILL. So lets take a look at that word.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fulfill Has this to say.
a : to put into effect : execute He fulfilled his pledge to cut taxes.
b : to meet the requirements of (a business order) Their order for more TVs was promptly fulfilled.
c : to measure up to : satisfy She hasn't yet fulfilled the requirements needed to graduate.
d : to bring to an end she came to install herself and fulfill her time at the house— Willa Cather
2a : to develop the full potentialities of He has a lot of talent, but he hasn't really fulfilled his potential.
b : to convert into reality a sense of the failure of life to fulfill its ultimate expectations— Leslie Rees
3 archaic : to make full : fill her subtle, warm, and golden breath … fulfills him with beatitude— Alfred Tennyson
Now in this we find both sides, we find that it can mean to being to an end, yet we must ask, has it all been brought to an end? Are we wrong to say Yeshua will be coming back? After all He has brought to an end the Prophets, then that would also mean all prophecy has been fulfilled, or removed as they no longer hold meaning. i.e. there is no need for them.
Yet if we now look at this from a more contextual view, we know He must return for the WORD to hold truth. After all if any part of what the WORD tells us is not true, then we place our salvation in the hands of sin. Just saying.
We also know from the fact that Yeshua must come again, we must understand that He is still working to FULFILL scripture.
On the flip side.
At best I can here, so I leave something our please let me know.
This passage is clear that Jesus FULFILLED the Law, nailed it the cross, and removed it. He know that man kind can not live up to it's standards, and that to be held to that standard would leave us all devoid of hope. The passage is clear in that it tells us Jesus removed law. As is clear in your own use of Webster.
The one thing this feast does that most will be unwilling to acknowledge is it ties both NT and OT together in a way that can't be dismissed. Though many do try, there is always something in what they say, that leads others to understand they don't really believe what they say.
First if one feast is going to do that, it has also got to pull at lest one theam from all the feast together. That them is BLOOD. Not from war, or any ill motives. The blood we need to look at is the blood of salvation. First Passover, the blood here marks us as being HaShem's people. Death passes over any marked with the blood of the Passover Lamb.
Unleavened bread, though not said in plane wording, that special gift is many time a sacrifice. Most of them were fellowship offerings, and peace offering.
First fruits, this is a feast of thanks giving. The offering, is a symbol of the prosperity of your labor. The offering that accompanies it, (though not stated) may have been a fellowship offering.
The feast of weeks, had many offerings that were to be given. (Once again we are not told what kind of offering it was to be.) Some make claim that they were to cover all the forms of sacrifices named in Torah. They all agree that at one was for sin.
Trumpets, though we are not told what the gift is for, we can argue that they were for tithes, or sin.
Day of Atoement Well I have no clue what this sacrifice was for do you? LOL Given the name of the feast, and as it the one we are looking at, it had to be a sin sacrifice right?
Succoth, booths, shelters, ingathering, or Tabernacles. Many will disagree with this first idea. The offering is seen by a small group as being a thanks giving offering. The larger group that would oppose this idea, see it as a sin offering.
I know this is a long way around to say much of nothing. Yet it the short path to show so much.
As noted, this feast is about prophecy, and salvation.
The goat that is selected for HaShem, is the sin offer for the nation. It is killed on the spot with no delay. (At lest that's how I was told) It's blood was sprinkled on the mercy seat, and so.
Yeshua, ( we are following the blood here, so don't get scared.) His blood covered us, so that death would not find us. Just like the first Passover lamb's blood marked the people, and like the first goat who's blood bloated out, covered, or atoned for the sins of Israel. Yeshua's blood does the same for the nations. If they will simply except it that is.
And it is His blood that leads some to think, (not a fact) His blood is a fellowship offering on Succoth.
As it will be at this time when all his people, the dead first, followed by the living, are gathered into His house. Where we will be forever giving thanks for all HaShem has done for us.
That covers the first goat. So I will let that sink in for a bit before moving on.
ALL MOST FORGOT, there will be a test on the second Sunday of next week.
Now the fun part. Remeber I said Yeshua's blood had to sprinkled onto the Ark for their to be a fulfillment of this feast? Well here are 2 way that it is said to be done.
First, His blood ran down a crack that was formed when the earth quack hit. At the bottom of this crack was the ark. So how did it get there?
Well the story goes that when
MAT 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
600 years before Christ would die, God arranged to have the representation of His Throne, the earthly Ark with its Mercy Seat, hidden deep within the earth just below where His Son would die on the cross. And upon this Mercy Seat, Christ's Blood would fall. In the earthly service, the high priest offered the blood, but Christ, the True High Priest, was dead. His Father had arranged that even in His death, Christ would sprinkle the required Blood upon the Mercy Seat.
God made wonderful provisions for this Ark. No man could defile it- only the high priest could come nigh unto it, and even then, if he did not comply with God's requirements, he too would be struck dead. It remained the only place on earth that could receive Christ's Blood as the sin offering, for it was the only object on this planet that had not been defiled by man. God would not allow man to defile His earthly Throne, nor did He allow man to destroy the Tables of the Law beneath that Throne. The payment of every sin was made just above that eternal Law.
So how did it get there?
We all know that Nebuchadnezzar took everything in the Temple back to Babylon right? Or did he?
This is where one must pay close attention to detail. First in 2Chronicals 35:1-6 we find that it was ordered to be be placed in the Temple. There is no record of it being placed there, nor of it placed in some unknown place. Yet in 2 Kings 24:13 that Nebuchadezzar took everything Gold the King Solomon had put there. As can be seen Salomon didn't put the Ark in the Temple.
So the story goes that it was hidden away under direction of HaShem. Stories of it being found are everywhere. Yet not on person has ever brought it to light for the world to see.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
As can be seen from the pasage above, it is worded in the future tense. The words IN DUE TIME make it clear this is happen later. The claim here is that only after the second goat has been excetped will this come about.
I know that is a lot, so I am going to save the second goat for tomorrow. I do pray you will take this time to really look over what has been placed before you. Good luck, and if you want more time on this please let me know.
Now that second goat, you know the one most people just see being lead away. Why is it that I have never heard any western church teach on this goat? I like to think I was just never around when they did, helps me to hold on to hope that at lest in church people are given both sides of every teachings.
Now Azazel some may say was the lucky one. He got away with his life.
Though it isn't in Torah, or any of the Tanakh, it is recorded that there would be a Scarlet thread placed around the second goats horn. As this goat was lead away, that thread would become lighter with ever steep. By the end,it would white. This was to let the people know their sins were forgiven. Now before anyone tells me this isn't in the Word, I pointed that out. It doesn't mean that it isn't recorded in the Talmud. We must never reject anything just because we didn't find in the Word. f the 613 laws we do find in the Torah were to be any good at all, we need to know just how to do what is asked of us. Moses was on the mountain for 40 days and nights.
Exo 24:18 Then Moses disappeared into the cloud as he climbed higher up the mountain. He remained on the mountain forty days and forty nights.
In that time we know full well he was told how to do everything that needed done, and not all were written in Torah.
Exo 25:40 “Be sure that you make everything according to the pattern I have shown you here on the mountain. How many times are told how the stones were cut? Not what was cut into them, rather HOW it was done. Not once. This is what is found in the Oral teachings. All the things that we read and think, :How was that done?" are found in the oral teachings. Books like the Mishnah, the Talmud, and the Tosefta all hold some of the oral teaching. Though most will point you to the Talmud as the top book to learn those teachings. Sorry I know that may seem off base, it is however a part of what must be seen for this study to cover everything.
The other thing we must know about that thread is that in the time of the second temple, it never turned white. Why is that little tidbit a must know?
We pointed out the first goat can be seen in Yeshua's sacrifice to some degree. The second goat, ( the second part of this prophecy if you will) can only be fulfilled when Israel excepts the first goats sacrifice.
More tomorrow, I am sure all understand that the day is just getting underway, And like it or not, it the day when everyone want to surprise you. Not much of one really, when you know they do it every year.
We must never reject anything just because we didn't find in the Word.
We pointed out the first goat can be seen in Yeshua's sacrifice to some degree. The second goat, ( the second part of this prophecy if you will) can only be fulfilled when Israel excepts the first goats sacrifice.
End quote
I am glad you mentioned what we don't find in the Word..HEHE
Second , I know you are a prophecy watcher like most mainstream Christians..I however am not
..Houston, we have a problem!
I will wait til the end to give my comments. I want to take what you say in and allow the part of the puzzle that needs to come together to fall into place because you are far more advanced in Torah that I am and I have lots to gain by your teachings and I am willing to admit I have been wrong on some things but for now I am sure I am on the right track. .
""""""Second , I know you are a prophecy watcher like most mainstream Christians..I however am not"""""""
Then something about apollo 13. LOL
I don't see any problem here, we both know where we stand, in my mind this study forces one to really look at their foundation. Teaching is and always will be learning in my mind.
So what would lead a person to think that the second goat is Israel as a people, rather than a nation. To answer this, let us first look at logic. If a leader of a nation Sins in a way that the people know nothing about, that is a sin by a person. The nation is not held accountable for it. Now if the nation as a whole, goes down the wrong road, the nation as a whole suffers for it.
Now when we look at the things prophecy calls for from and for Israel, many say it must happen. Some say it has in the past, and can name people, dates, and places. I think it best to let the word speak for it's self. After all witness come's from there anyway.
Isa 10:20 In that day the remnant left in Israel, the survivors in the house of Jacob,
will no longer depend on allies who seek to destroy them.
But they will faithfully trust the LORD, the Holy One of Israel.
Isa 10:22 But though the people of Israel are as numerous
as the sand of the seashore, only a remnant of them will return. The LORD has rightly decided to destroy his people.
I do ask that you please the full chapter. Now here how it is said to be. Israel and Judah had became 2 states by this point. The Word always placed a distinction of that when speaking of the nation. When Israel, (the 10 northern tribes only) were taken by Assyria they for the most part didn't return to Israel. This is oddly backed by history, and historical documents. Old and incomplete though they may be.
Isa 11:12 He will raise a flag among the nations and assemble the exiles of Israel. He will gather the scattered people of Judah from the ends of the earth.
Now is when what little I know about the teachings of per-dispensation comes in. Some will tell you this was fulfilled when Assyria set Israel free. some with have other dates, and stories. Then you find the teachings or replacement theology. When Yeshua gave salvation to the gentile, the church replaced them. In this way the prophecy about Israel was fulfilled. Wrong, sorry Rev. 7 will testify to this if one really look at what has to say. (We will cover that better down the road, as it plays a key roll in much of the Word.)
So lets look at what we have now. Judah will suffer great losses at some point in time. Or there would be no need to point out that THE SERVIVORS of Judah would no longer depend on allies and so on. Some will say this was Babylon, others Rome, and then some say Hitler. So just looking at Judah right now. From the day they were taken over by Babylon, they have not been a truly independent nation.
After Rome there were not enough Jews left to form a nation. That lasted for close to 2000 years. So to have Israel raise a flag at any point along the way simply doesn't work.
As for Israel. They were in diaspora for something like 3000 years. (That is not an accurate number) Judah had no way to bring Israel back to a land they really didn't govern. That is until 1948, when they did raise their flag, and became independent. They learned from Hitler what truly great loss was all about. They don't look at any nation as a true alley, why would they. Yet there flag fly's with other nations in the UN. They have worked tirelessly to bring home every Israeli that wants to come home, and asked no help of any nation to do so. More on that tomorrow. I am looking forward to seeing your replies. If we stall out here for a bit I am good with that. After all I simply gave the historical highlights.
