Ok...I hope you read over what you wrote again, and then maybe read those verses over. If it's only talking about a physical death, then the wicked man that turned from his sin would never die right? If it's only physical, they are BOTH going to die. If either of them die in their sin, are they going to be in heaven?? Anyway...I think you're starting to try to stretch some stuff a tiny bit.
So...solely by faith? There's nothing you have to do besides believe? Because it's possible to have dead faith, right?
1. Does scripture say, anywhere, that we can absolutely know that we have eternal life? If there is scripture that says we can absolutely know for sure that we have eternal life, how do we reconcile it with those verses that say that it's only eternal if we do our part?
We can know, if we believe and if we're following the pattern of Christ, but it is possible to fall into unbelief and be cut off the vine.
2. Is salvation a singular event in a person's life, or is it something that happens over time, depending on how the person saved responds to God?
I believe we're saved as long as we're follow God as best we can, but the race isn't over until we die. We have not reached the prize. We have been forgiven of our sins, but if we're still sinning then we still need to be turning from our sin, we're still in a battle against sin, but now we have hope to conquer it with Jesus on our side. We supposed to be a new creature that hates sin. I just think it's truly possible to have received grace and forgiveness, to be following Jesus as best as you can, but letting the cares and sins of this would overshadow God's power in your mind. Convincing yourself that God does not have the power to help you. That is unbelief, and that is denying Christ.
3. Are the verses that you've listed speaking to a particular group of people during a specific time frame (even if it's a future undisclosed time frame)? For instance, who is Jesus talking to in Matthew 24? What is Jesus talking about in Matthew 24?
So...is this the good ol' "this part of the bible doesn't apply to me"? So you could steal something, not ask forgiveness, and still be one of God's children? I think the verses in Ezekiel apply to anyone who is sinning, and I would say that the only parts that do not apply to us are the ones that the bible says do not.
In Matthew 24, Jesus is talking to the Jews about the future. He's telling them that Rome will destroy Jerusalem, and telling them to be ready when He comes in the future. Faithful servants will be rewarded, and unfaithful servants will be counted with the hypocrites.
Ahem. Sorry 'bout that. You're picture looks like a girl. Huge apologies. :)
�We can know, if we believe and if we're following the pattern of Christ, but it is possible to fall into unbelief and be cut off the vine.�
How do we fall into unbelief or get cut off the vine when we�re 1)Kept by God, 2) part of the Body of Christ, 3) sinners even after salvation, and thus cannot hope to perfectly follow the pattern of Christ at all times?
1 John 5:11-13 puts the knowing to ONE thing- having the Son. Having the Son comes by faith IN the Son to not only KEEP what we�ve entrusted to Him (2 Timothy 1:12, 14, 2 Tim 2:13, 19, Psalm 91:11, Jude 1:1) but that when we came and He saved us, that He will keep us and lovingly lead us to repentance.
�I believe we're saved as long as we're follow God as best we can, but the race isn't over until we die. We have not reached the prize. We have been forgiven of our sins, but if we're still sinning then we still need to be turning from our sin, we're still in a battle against sin, but now we have hope to conquer it with Jesus on our side. We supposed to be a new creature that hates sin. I just think it's truly possible to have received grace and forgiveness, to be following Jesus as best as you can, but letting the cares and sins of this would overshadow God's power in your mind. Convincing yourself that God does not have the power to help you. That is unbelief, and that is denying Christ.�
And this is where I disagree with you. WE cannot follow or live as a Christian on our own, EVER. Our �best� isn�t enough, at any time. It is Christ IN me that enables me to turn from sin that has been exposed to me by the HS that lives in me. Repentance is not a onetime shot in the dark thing, and scripture makes it pretty plain that one mark of a Christian is the willingness to humble ourselves and turn from sin- through the enabling of the HS which testifies with our spirit that we are, indeed, His.
So, you�re also saying that if I doubt, for one minute, that God has the power to help me in any situation that I have denied Christ and lost my salvation? Hmmm. So, can I, upon regaining faith, actually be returned to salvation?
�So...is this the good ol' "this part of the bible doesn't apply to me"? So you could steal something, not ask forgiveness, and still be one of God's children? I think the verses in Ezekiel apply to anyone who is sinning, and I would say that the only parts that do not apply to us are the ones that the bible says do not.�
Nope, that�s not what I�m saying. I�m saying looking at the context that the verse is given in is important to understanding scripture. In Matthew 24 (and the corresponding passages in Mark) Jesus is specifically speaking about �the signs of His coming and the end of the age.� That�s a pretty important thing to notate. In Ezekiel, the context is also pretty important, because when you read it, you see what the meaning is behind the verses that many take out of context. I can take two scriptures randomly, slap em together, and while they both are true and in scripture, when taken out of context and put together form a conclusion that is erroneous. Make a chart- put all those that people say show that we CANNOT lose our salvation on one side, and those that say we CAN on the other.
In Matthew 24, Jesus is talking to the Jews about the future. He's telling them that Rome will destroy Jerusalem, and telling them to be ready when He comes in the future. Faithful servants will be rewarded, and unfaithful servants will be counted with the hypocrites.
Correct. And have you not seen in scripture the distinction given between faithful servants and unfaithful? Paul says, but some of you WERE this, but you have been washed white. Peter tells us, but you are not of the ones that turn away.
I think a lot of the disagreement here is the actual definition of salvation to begin with. Salvation IS NOT saying a prayer and getting dunked in a tank. Salvation is a total surrender of your will, mind, body and heart into the care of Christ, after being drawn by the Father, compelled by the love of the Son, and responding to the Holy Spirits conviction (thus resulting in that surrender.) Many people have the mistaken notion that an emotional experience in church equals a soul saved. That's not always true. Nor is it true that a Christian, a true born again believer, cannot doubt God or sin and still be born again. Because, ya know, when we DO sin (of which doubt is one of a long line), we have an advocate with the Father (1 John 2:1).
"So...solely by faith? There's nothing you have to do besides believe? Because it's possible to have dead faith, right?"
James says that faith without works is dead. But let's look at this.
Say, for instance, that I truly believe, to the very bottom of my soul, that someone is gonna lob a nuclear bomb right in the middle of the town I live in in two days time. Because I truly believe it (because it came from what I consider a reliable source), I am going to be preparing. I'm going to be packing my stuff, getting my kids ready, calling everyone I know to tell them to do the same. I might even be stopping people I DON'T know on the street and telling them, "Hey, you better get outta the way! If you stay here, you're gonna die!"
My BELIEF in what caused the WORKS to follow. Hebrews 11 paints a pretty good picture of what comes first. It is no different with saving faith-Hebrews 10:9 (which is different from the type of belief the demons have James 2:19). Demons have a pretty sound confession of Christ- the don't just believe He is the SOn of Man and God- they KNOW He is (what have thou to do with us, oh Son of Man Mat 8:29), and what His power is and how it affects them (have you come to torture us before our time?).
God saves to the UTTERMOST those who come to God through Christ. Hebrews 7:25 There is no other qualifications present. God saves, utterly, those who come to Him through Jesus.
And it seems utterly ironic to me that you say that we can be assured of our salvation ONLY IF we continue to BELIEVE and do not doubt (as well as obeying the command to sin no more etc) but do not believe that FAITH is all that is required to save, especially seeing as how scripture states that it is faith (kind that saves) that is the only thing that CAN save or please Him.
*sigh*....CDFF ate my post...I hate that...anyway...short version. I do believe that faith is all we need to accept Jesus as our savior, but I also believe that after we accept Him, He doesn't leave us in sin. He gives us the power to change. We cannot do it alone, but we are supposed to be doing our best. Jesus takes our feeble attempts and covers them with His perfection. But if we don't bear good fruit through Christ's power, then we are cut off. I just think you're missing the point that there are people that are already in the position to bear fruit/serve God. They aren't evil unsaved people. As far as the distinction between faithful/unfaithful servants...they both servants. There is a third class that the "unsaved" are in, and the unfaithful servants are cast into that third group when their unfaithfulness is discovered. But the point is, they were serving God and they fell away. Wouldn't that be what Peter is saying when He clarifies that some do turn away? What are they turning away from? Anyway...I believe that it's possible to fall. Read the parables of the 5 virgins and the others like it. Those 5 virgins weren't evil non-Christians. They were virgins(pure) serving God(invited to the wedding), they had the holy spirit(oil), their lamp was burning(witnessing), but they did not endure to the end and they were locked out of the wedding. This isn't just a couple verses that I'm slapping together and taking out of context. The entire christian world is divided over this...why? Because there is so much biblical evidence for both sides. Not because we're slapping verses together. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle...but I absolutely believe that we have a free moral will. Otherwise this whole thing is completely pointless.
