It has been my experience that the answer is no. We all know and understand that HaShem is order, and that all things that truly show His Light and Love are as well. I ask that if you can't follow the simple request placed before you, please don't post on this thread.
Any debate on the Laws of HaShem, goes off the deep end, with passage after passage being posted. In just one post we may find as many as 15 if not more. This is an unproductive way to handle this, or any topic. As it can leave any one wishing to reply, with little option, Leave a post that is pages long, or leave a vague post filled with even more passages and little substance. This is what leads to endless debate with no answers, as well talking in circles.
For this reason, it is always best to look at ONLY ONE PASSAGE at a time. Now once that passage is called up, Both sides must look at it from both sides. i.e. Be ready and willing to argue the points you don't follow.
If the only thing we do is push one side of a topic, we fail to really look at the other side, and in most cases, fail to even hear the other side. So here is my propose, it is open to every one that truly wishes to open their hearts and minds to TRUTH. Not my truth, not your truth, and not your churches truth. Rather BIBLICAL TRUTH.
As almost all study of OT vs NT is centered around the Law of HaShem, (Know here after as TORAH) the first thing that must be found is, "How valid is Torah today?" Not an easy answer for many.
So here we go.
When it comes to Torah, the one passage that comes up more than other is Mat. 5:17. So lets look closely at this passage.
(NLT) Mat 5:17 “Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.
(KJ same passage) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
One must always take note of the passage opening. Here we are told not to think that something is Yeshua's reason for coming. From that we are safe to say that anything that follows, (until a change of topic) is what we shouldn't see as coming topass. After all He just THINK NOT, or in my words, (Don't put words in my mouth, or forget the important words I use.)
So let's do a full brake down of this passage. Looking at from both sides.
First we have THINK NOT, or Don't misunderstand. Both give the same thought behind the words. Just tell us not to entertain the idea that Yeshua came to do any of the following. So what is it he didn't come to do?
(KJ ) I am come to destroy the laws or the prophets:
(NLT) I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets.
If we read this passage for what it tells us, rather than what we wish it to say, we find that the Torah, and the Prophets are placed together. From this one should conclude that they work together, and we can not remove one from this passage with any hope of keeping the whole context of the passage.
Also, if we remove any part of this, then apply the new contextual meaning to the full passage, as well as any that may follow, do we not teach a lie, based on what we hope is true? SO any teaching on this passage must hold true to both Torah and prophets. With this understanding, one must walk carefully. If we say Yeshua removed the Law, nailed it to the cross, and so on, We also say that He has removed the prophecies that have not been fulfilled. Like His second coming, Judgment of all man kind, and many others.
(KJ) I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
(NLT) No, I came to accomplish their purpose
Now the most common word to be pushed by them that stand in opposition to Torah is the word FULFILL. So lets take a look at that word.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fulfill Has this to say.
a : to put into effect : execute He fulfilled his pledge to cut taxes.
b : to meet the requirements of (a business order) Their order for more TVs was promptly fulfilled.
c : to measure up to : satisfy She hasn't yet fulfilled the requirements needed to graduate.
d : to bring to an end she came to install herself and fulfill her time at the house— Willa Cather
2a : to develop the full potentialities of He has a lot of talent, but he hasn't really fulfilled his potential.
b : to convert into reality a sense of the failure of life to fulfill its ultimate expectations— Leslie Rees
3 archaic : to make full : fill her subtle, warm, and golden breath … fulfills him with beatitude— Alfred Tennyson
Now in this we find both sides, we find that it can mean to being to an end, yet we must ask, has it all been brought to an end? Are we wrong to say Yeshua will be coming back? After all He has brought to an end the Prophets, then that would also mean all prophecy has been fulfilled, or removed as they no longer hold meaning. i.e. there is no need for them.
Yet if we now look at this from a more contextual view, we know He must return for the WORD to hold truth. After all if any part of what the WORD tells us is not true, then we place our salvation in the hands of sin. Just saying.
We also know from the fact that Yeshua must come again, we must understand that He is still working to FULFILL scripture.
On the flip side.
At best I can here, so I leave something our please let me know.
This passage is clear that Jesus FULFILLED the Law, nailed it the cross, and removed it. He know that man kind can not live up to it's standards, and that to be held to that standard would leave us all devoid of hope. The passage is clear in that it tells us Jesus removed law. As is clear in your own use of Webster.
First keep in mind that Paul keep the Torah as best he could as is found in Acts 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
Please keep in mind that not many can answer this question. If Paul was teaching against the keeping of Torah why would he take part in any sacrifice, or take a vow that has it's roots in the Torah?
End quote
Yes, Paul even circumcised Timothy so that both of them would be received and be heard since Jews and Gentiles were not to co-mingle as the law forbid it and Timothy was a Greek. . It was necessary even though circumcision was not applicable at that time post cross. It was all about evangelizing the masses.
The Jerusalem brethren explained to Paul that thousands of Jews had “believed,” i.e., they had been converted to Christ.
Though these multitudes had become Christians, they had not arrived at the full realization that the introduction of Christianity made the law of Moses inoperative as a redemptive system. Accordingly, these new Christians still circumcised their children (as a covenant sign), and they observed many of the “customs” of the Mosaic regime.
Here was the problem: a report had been circulated widely that Paul went about constantly teaching that Jews, especially those who lived in Gentile lands, should “forsake,” (apostasia –. “apostasy”) Moses. “Moses” stands for the Old Testament economy. They apparently had concluded that Paul opposed any sort of connection with the Hebrew system, which was not true.
The Jewish antagonists were bound to hear that Paul was in Jerusalem, and there would be trouble. The following solution, therefore, was proposed. There were four Hebrew men who had placed themselves under a vow (likely a Nazarite vow). It was near the time for that ritual to be consummated by a purification ceremony in the temple. It was suggested, therefore, that Paul identify with them, paying their temple fees, and, “purifying” himself along with them. Such a procedure was allowed under the law. This would be done so that the Jews in general might see that Paul was “walking orderly, observing the law.” Gentiles, of course, were under no such constraints, as indeed the conference in Jerusalem had established
Not only were the four “purified,” but so was Paul—though likely not for the same reason. There is no evidence that the apostle was under a vow. However, since he recently had been in Gentile territory, he would be viewed as ceremonially “unclean,” hence would need to purify himself in order to partake with the others.
Paul’s teaching on the abolition of the law had been clear and definitive ( 2 Cor. 3; Rom. 7; Gal. 5).
It should be noted in passing that ceremonial “purification” did not necessarily involve atonement for personal sin. A Jewish woman had to be “purified” following the birth of a child (Lev. 12:1, Lk. 2:22), even though the act of bearing a child is not sinful. Paul’s act of “purification,” therefore, need not suggest that he was seeking personal forgiveness by means of an animal sacrifice. Clearly that was not Paul’s purpose in this temple ritual.
Just before He died, when the Father forsook Him (Matthew 27:46), our sins were symbolically nailed to the cross in His body. "Who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed" (I Peter 2:24). At the time of His crucifixion, Jesus Christ became sin for us.
I think the moral law still stands but not the ceremonial laws.
The Ten Commandments God gave to Moses and the Israelites, He also engraved it into every person's heart. As Paul says in Romans 2, “for when Gentiles (non-Jews) do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts (14-15, NKJV).
Google
Trespass:
ARCHAIC•LITERARY
commit an offense against (a person or a set of rules).
"a man who had trespassed against Judaic law"
ARCHAIC•LITERARY
>>>a sin or offense.<<
Strong's concordance:
Trespass
Phonetic Spelling: (par-ap'-to-mah)
Definition: a false step, a trespass
Usage: a falling away, lapse, slip, false step, trespass, >>>sin<<<
.
Strong's Concordance
Ordinances:
dogmatizó: to decree, >>>to subject oneself to an ordinance<<<
Original Word: δογματίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: dogmatizó
Phonetic Spelling: (dog-mat-id'-zo)
Definition: to decree, to subject oneself to an ordinance
Usage: I subject to>>> regulations<<<, decree; mid: I subject myself to regulations, am decree-ridden.
δογματίζω: to decree, command, enjoin, lay down an ordinance: Diodorus 4, 83, etc.; Esther 3:9; 2 Macc. 10:8 (etc.); the Sept. (not Theod.) Daniel 2:13; passive (present δογματίζομαι); ordinances are imposed upon me, I suffer ordinances to be imposed upon me: Colossians 2:20 (R. V. do ye subject yourselves to ordinances; 150, Winers Grammar, § 39, 1 a.; Buttmann, 188 (163) Meyer or Lightfoot at the passage).
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
be subject to ordinances.
From dogma; to prescribe by statute, i.e. (reflexively) to submit to, >>>>ceremonially rule -- be subject to ordinances<<<<<<<
see GREEK dogma
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
contrary
: or hephek {hay'-fek}; from haphak; a turn, i.e. The reverse -- contrary.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all>>> trespasses<<<; 14 blotting out the>>>> handwriting of ordinances<<<< that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 and having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
New American Standard Bible
having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
New King James Version
having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
King James Bible
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Christian Standard Bible
He erased the certificate of debt, with its obligations, that was against us and opposed to us, and has taken it away by nailing it to the cross.
Contemporary English Version
God wiped out the charges that were against us for disobeying the Law of Moses. He took them away and nailed them to the cross.
Good News Translation
he canceled the unfavorable record of our debts with its binding rules and did away with it completely by nailing it to the cross.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
He erased the certificate of debt, with its obligations, that was against us and opposed to us, and has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the cross.
Colossians 2:20
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to >>>ordinances,<<< 21 (touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
""""""""""""""" Not only were the four “purified,” but so was Paul—though likely not for the same reason. There is no evidence that the apostle was under a vow. However, since he recently had been in Gentile territory, he would be viewed as ceremonially “unclean,” hence would need to purify himself in order to partake with the others.""""""""""""""
You would be wrong. Acts 18 tells us
Act 18:18
Paul stayed in Corinth for some time after that, then said good-bye to the brothers and sisters and went to nearby Cenchrea. There he shaved his head according to Jewish custom, marking the end of a vow. Then he set sail for Syria, taking Priscilla and Aquila with him.
If you know what this vow was, then we have to conclude that Paul would also have followed through with all that is entailed.
As to the rest of your post, they will be covered in time. As I am unwilling to go in circles, we will cover that when we get to them.
Now I must ask.
Why is it so hard for people that wish to make the point that the LAW has been removed, yet wish to hold on to the partts they like, to stay on topic? Is it that they can't debunk them one at a time, or is there anoth reason?
As we move on, one should make note that the last day of unleavened bread is also a Sabbath. So the next feast we come to would be, another harvest feast. Lev 23:15
“From the day after the Sabbath—the day you bring the bundle of grain to be lifted up as a special offering—count off seven full weeks.
Though this is called Pentecost today by most, it is called Shavuot or weeks. The keeping of this feast is seen in Acts 2:1, Acts 20:16, and 1Co 16:8. For reason that should be clear to everyone, we are going to look at
1Co 16:8
In the meantime, I will be staying here at Ephesus until the Festival of Pentecost.
Now I understand that every church keeps Pentecost. The ones that do have removed it from it's true meaning, passing it off as having nothing to do with Torah at all. They teach it as being the birth day of the church, and as such they say it is a new testament thing not related to the OT.
Flip side
Pentecost is an unfulfilled feast. It points us to a time when true believers will be taken up, and given new bodies.
We are now at the 1/2 way point in the feast, and as many understand it, we have entered the feast that havn't been fulfilled as yet.
So what does Pentecost mean to us. Many see it as the birth day of the church. Others see it as being the fulfillment of Yeshua telling us He would send us a comforter, and teacher. Yet others have came to see it the date the Torah was given to Moses.
It is made clear in Torah that this is a harvest feast. As many people may know, wheat, corn, and other grains are harvested that time of year.
Now we have 3 sides of this feast, and with any luck when we open this up for a short look at the feast as a whole, and what they show us, I think many that follow this will be floored by what I really do follow.
Jehovah had confused the languages back at the Tower of Babel in order to separate the people, at Pentecost, the Holy Spirit used the diverse languages to unite His people from every tribe and tongue and nation. And with this miraculous declaration of His Word on Pentecost (Acts 2), the hope that all nations could come to faith in the God of Israel had begun to be realized.
There is one other view I had almost forgot about. That being that Pentecost, marked the first time the Holy Spirit was offered to man. In at lest one church, it is seen as a new form of baptism, or at lest a second form.
Speaking in unknown language in that church, is kind of a rite of passage. They follow that with out being able to do so, one can't be a true follower, as you haven't show all the signs given in,
Mar 16:17
These miraculous signs will accompany those who believe: They will cast out demons in my name, and they will speak in new languages
Mar 16:18
They will be able to handle snakes with safety, and if they drink anything poisonous, it won’t hurt them. They will be able to place their hands on the sick, and they will be healed.”
Should someone wish to debate this understanding they will turn to,
1Co 13:1
If I could speak all the languages of earth and of angels, but didn’t love others, I would only be a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
As with many passages, when we look at different translations we find a different meaning in the words them selves. The one post says, IF, yet the KJ uses the word Though. This leads to the question, did Paul really speak in many languages that he didn't know, or is this passage telling us IF he could and had no love in his heart......
A short word study gives us what we need to find this out.
Strong's Number G1437 matches the Greek ἐάν (ean), which occurs 276 times in 254 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV
Note that of the 276 uses of the Greek word, is rendered IF some 200 times, yet is only rendered THOUGH Some 24 times, Whosoever 30 times, and whatsoever around 10 times.
This leaves a person to decide for them self what would be the best word to use in 1 Co. 13.
We must make note that the Holy Spirit isn't a new gift, as it named some 14 times in the Tanakh. Though it uses the phrase Spirit of HaShem, it should be clear that both are one and the same.
Yes, the miracles testified to the authenticity of the messengers and to the evidence that HaShem is at work and served to advance the Gospel and establish the early church.
John called the miracles signs (John 4:54) which pointed to the kingdom and restoration of creation.
They attest to His divine identity and heraled in the new age or age to come.
Malachi 4
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.
4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5 >>>Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord<<<<
And here:
Luke 20
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 >>>>For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.<<<<<
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the >>>>times of the Gentiles be fulfilled<<<.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26>>>> Men's hearts failing them for fear,<<<< and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Whether or not we are witness to miracles, we indeed are assured that He is drawing those called closer to Himself and adding them to the kingdom.
Matthew 11:28-30 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29
