The Bible, the justice system and common sense dictates a person cannot testify on their own behalf. Therefore the Bible cannot testify on its own behalf.------------------------------ Since the New Testament did not exist at the time of its own writing, it is impossible for anything in the New Testament to testify about the New Testament. ----------------------------------- The Bible isn't a Book, but a collection of books by different authors. Therefore authors may testify for another book as long as they weren't the author of that book------------------- Where legitimate testimony exists, what is being testified to? For example Psalm 119 may testify about Torah; "the word is perfect" but that does not equate to inerrant, but rather, perfect for the job it is intended for.----------------------------
The bottom line is the Bible is a extremely valuable written record by and about the relationship with God.our physical and spiritual ancestors had. The Bible is a God inspired tool designed to bring us into relationship with the "Living Word" rather than bring us into relationship with a Paper Pope.
You have an issue with Paul by taking him out of the cultural context of the second Temple period and imposing a modern systematic theology context on his writings.
END QUOTE CHUCKK
My reply to Chuckk,
you’re confusing assertions for fact. You said absolutely nothing factual in your statement above.
If you expect to be taken seriously then back your statements with proof and reveal your sources. Then, clearly explain WHY you justify placing your confidence in them"
>David, I did indeed gave you facts. I'll repeat them here: Paul was called before the Council of Jerusalem for reported misconduct conduct. If Paul's authority is not greater than the Council of Jerusalem, then how can his authority be greater than Moses and Jesus? Revealing my source; Book of Acts<
"QUOTE CHUCKK
This is the issue you flatly refuse to see: In order for systematic theology to work properly, you need Scripture verses supporting a system where Paul has authority superseding Moses and Jesus.
END QUOTE CHUCKK
My reply to Chuck
The Scriptures you’ve asked for have been provided for you but you refuse to believe just like the Phariseeic Jews in Jesus day. If Jesus can’t convince you, who am I ??"
> If you're telling the truth, why not post your simple and explicit Scripture here to prove me wrong?<
"QUOTE THE CHUCKK
You don't have the Scripture
You refuse to see or acknowledge without Scriptural support your belief is unsubstantiated.
END QUOTE THE CHUCKK
My reply to chuckk
Quite false! Plenty of scriptural substantiation. Jesus performed miracles and so did Paul. Yet the traditions of your Pharisaical method keeps blocking your view "
>I've already posted Scriptue verses from BOTH Moses and Jesus teaching not to rely on "miracles" as proof of authority. I'll provide them again: Deuteronomy 13:1-3 and Matthew 24:24 <
"Paul was called before the Council of Jerusalem for his reported misconduct."????
chuckles: You should be very careful about knowingly lying about God's word which may be an unpardonable
sin!"
>
Acts 15
22 Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers. 23 With them they sent the following letter:
The apostles and elders, your brothers,
To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:
Greetings.
"24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25 So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements:....."
Acts 21
"21 They have been informed that you [Paul] teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision....."
Paul declared he had “died to the Law” (Galatians 2.19; Romans 7.4, 6). How much power does law have over the dead? None. Paul’s death was a result of identification with Christ in His death.
Galatians 3
In chapter 3, Paul began to apply his tonic to the foolish Galatians who were abandoning his teachings of grace for the teachings of Law of the Jerusalem assembly. Paul asked if they had received the Holy Spirit by keeping the Law or through faith .
Here Paul reminded them that lawkeeping was a work of the flesh.
Paul used Abraham to illustrate (Galatians 3.6; Romans 4.3-5, cf. Genesis 15.4-6) that his salvation was a pattern for all who believed his gospel of grace, in which salvation is obtained by faith alone.
Paul’s stated God’s promise to Abraham took precedence over the Law which had come 430 years later (Galatians 3.17-18).
The Jews in Jerusalem objected to Paul’s message because it had never been revealed or taught that salvation was by faith alone. They did not deny Paul’s converts faith. Their objection was that faith alone was insufficient for salvation; one must also be circumcised and keep the Law to be saved (Acts 15.1, 5). That was the point of contention.
Thus, Paul wrote that the Law “has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith [alone].
As a result of Paul’s gospel, no difference exists between Jew and Gentile in Christ (Galatians 3.28). This was not true before Paul.
Paul’s Gentile converts had been idolaters, slaves to false gods (Galatians 4.8 cf. 1 Thessalonians 1.9). Believing Paul’s gospel freed them from slavery. Paul asked why they wished to return to slavery–the slavery of the Mosaic Law.
In His earthly ministry, Jesus ministered to Jews under the Mosaic Law. In His heavenly ministry, Jesus commissioned Paul and gave him the ministry to Gentiles, who compose the vast majority in the Church, the body of Christ, who have a heavenly destiny, and are governed by grace. For this reason, Paul wrote, “But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother” (Galatians 4.26). Furthermore, Paul declared, “And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.” The Church, the body of Christ, is not under Law but under Promise, under Grace.
So again Chuckk, where is your contention with "Paul's Gospel"
Satanic **LIE** by chuckles:Satanic **LIE** by chuckles:
"Paul was called before the Council of Jerusalem for his reported **MISCONDUCT**."????
chuckles: You should be very careful about knowingly lying about God's word which may be an unpardonable
sin!
chuckles then claimed that this **MISCONDUCT BY PAUL* was found in Acts 15:22-27:
Acts 15:22-27: Then the apostles and elders with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas called Barsabbas and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers. With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers. To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings: We have heard that some went out from us **WITHOUT OUR AUTHORIZATION** and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. So we all agreed to chose some men and send them to you with our **DEAR FRIENDS BARNABAS AND PAUL**--men who have **RISKED THEIR LIVES** for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing.
However anyone can clearly see there was no **MISCONDUCT BY PAUL** as you claimed in the above Scripture!!
"So again Chuckk, where is your contention with "Paul's Gospel""?
> Contention with Paul's Gospel is not the subject. Scriptural evidence for Paul's authority superseding that of Moses and Jesus. Answer that question and contention will be a moot point. <
"However anyone can clearly see there was no **MISCONDUCT BY PAUL** as you claimed in the above Scripture!!"
> You've misread my post. I said "reported misconduct" then posted Acts 21 as proof where Paul is told specifically what is being "reported" about him and what to do to prove them wrong.
Go back and re-read and you'll see where you misread. <
You don't believe Paul because he isn't Y'shua so then...
Why should you believe Y'shua?
Why should you believe the Gospel writers got it right?
IS it because the writers either talked directly with Y'shua or wrote about him from someone who did?
So according to Luke, Paul was an eyewitness...he saw Y'shua on the Damascus road. He had visions from HaShem
So did Paul have the same authority that Peter and the other apostles had? This would be affirmed in Acts 15 about circumcision, wouldn't it?
Of all the people, James who was the head of the Jerusalem church and who was also Jesus’ brother accepted Paul and Peter’s witness and their authority as an apostle and he agrees with Paul. In fact, the whole church agreed with Paul. They accepted that Paul had the full authority as any other apostle. So, why would you believe Matthew’s account of Jesus but not accept Paul?
Jesus taught about the Kingdom of God, he taught kindness and love whereas Paul talked about justification by faith, about the law and things like that. Are these teaches incompatible?
Some people feel that Paul was harsh; Jesus was never harsh, he was a loving person. But in Matthew 23, we have an entire chapter condemning the most external religious people there were, the Scribes and the Pharisees.
So, what about judgement? Paul was a judgmental person. Interestingly in Matthew 5:20, it was Jesus who said unless your righteousness surpassed that of the Pharisees and the Teachers of the Law, you will certainly not enter into the Kingdom of God. So, Jesus just said, very judgmentally, that the most religious people of his day aren’t even in the Kingdom of God!
So my advice is read the scriptures like Paul didn't exist and you will see ?
Will you see Y'shua teaching justification by faith?
Paul did not create Christianity; different but compatible?
When I look at Paul, I don't see so much of him having some individual-based special authority. I think it's more along the lines of following God's word on things. It's the same authority all believers in Christ share. I do believe he was a chosen vessel, but he's sharing what he knows about God's plan. We can all be a chosen vessel and we should all be ministers in one form or another.
With Paul, I think it's safe to say that from what we know of him, he was his own best critic. He understood the implications of his past. Many times these are the people we see God approach very directly. Even Moses. We have a man in a high position run because of a choice he made that didn't sit well with him. Not only that, the glory of God is in taking a man with a stutter and giving him a message to share. God addressed Moses and provided an answer to his concerned. We had the most humble man, as the Bible tells us, and he had to be humbled even more. Of course, God provided a solution and sent Aaron with him.
When I read Paul's writings, I don't know that he proclaimed anything that was "out in space", and much of it is referenced in the OT, including the Torah. If something originates from God as the primary source, then it's not my place to have a problem with it, but to try to understand it better.
The same people claiming Paul's authority supersedes Moses and Jesus, also believe Jesus is God. Therefore they are saying Paul has more authority than God?
You keep trying to put the cart before the horse by trying to prove Paul's authority by what he or his Gentile traveling partner (Luke) said about him.
Let's take a REAL critical look:
1) In Scripture, Paul is called a "Apostle" 22 times.
2) 20 of those times it is Paul calling himself an Apostle.
3) 2 times it is Luke his Gentile traveling partner refers to him as an Apostle.
4) None of the Apostles appointed by Jesus ever call Paul an Apostle.
5) Paul mockingly refers to the 12 Apostles as "so called super Apostles"
Therefore if Paul is not recognized as an Apostle by the 12 apostles and is under the authority of the Jerusalem Council how is it people claim his authority supersedes the authority of Jesus?
