Thread: Deep questions that need thoughtful consideration
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Deep questions that need thoughtful consideration
Posted : 26 Apr, 2011 11:55 AM
In Mattithyahu(Matthew)5:17-20 please read it first
It says that He did not come to destroy the Torah or the Prophets but to complete, and that until Heaven and earth pass away not one yod or tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done
1)Now has all been done?
2)Has the earth and Heaven passed away
3)If passing away means gone or changed from what we know as Heaven and earth then does that not mean that "pass away" pertaining to Torah would mean to do away with or change? Has this happened?
4) Should we keep Torah if the Heaven and earth are still here?
5) If ALL has not been done then why are we not to keep the Torah (not the letter of the LAW as some think but the Commands of our FATHER as obedient sons and daughters like the MESSIAH did cause if you say that keeping it is bad or not right then MESSIAH was bad or not right cause HE kept it and the Feast all HIS life)
special NOTE
Now KNOW THIS,,,that keeping Torah DOES NOT mean that you forsake YAHSHUA or that HE died for nothing.
We ARE NOT talking about salvation here but being OBEDIENT to what YAHSHUA the MESSIAH has told you to do
So again by no means will keeping the Commands of the FATHER save you unless you have the BLOOD of THE LAMB YAHSHUA MESSIAH
In love of MESSIAH YAHSHUA i pray you will read with understanding and pray you are listening to your FATHER who is in Heaven above us and who is greater than all,,through HIS SON YAHSHUA MESSIAH we are paid in full for . AMEN
You are correct,the Law and the Prophets are still in force and will be until the end of this age. The question is Not whether or not we should keep them, the question is 'how'. They have always been "un-keepable" by mere man. Not only has Yeshua has kept them for us, but we are no longer under them in Yeshua, we have been set free to follow a new way; the way of the Spirit. Those not in Yeshua are still under the Law and the Prophets.
that is not what HE said though if you are saying that we in MESSIAH are not to keep the law to best of our ability then you are calling HIM a liar cause HE plainly says right there that NOT until the Heavens and earth pass will anything be lost from the Torah so there is no way HE is saying now there is a new way
What HE did was erase the debt so now we can offer what we did here on earth and HIS blood and be forgive and pass into eternal life,,,,we still have to act right,,we can't go around killing people then saying well i believe in MESSIAH so i'm forgiven,,,no no we still have to conduct ourselves in a way pleasing to the FATHER,,and the best example of that is YAHSHUA
that makes no sense to say that HE is saying here that NOT one yod or tittle will fall until I die,,,,that is not being said here
HE is saying HE did not come to destroy the Torah or the Prophets
okay so see it like this if it goes the way you say it does then here is how it reads
Don't think i came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets i did not come to destroy but to destroy cause by what you say HIM fulfilling is doing away with it
because if HE did away with them then all would be fulfilled and we all know all of Scripture has not been fulfilled
just take a second brother and think about this?? is HE really saying here that there is a new way and that we don't have to keep HIS FATHERS rules???
your right we never could keep it that is why we need YAHSHUA so bad in SO MANY WAYS to pay the debt that the blood of goats could never pay but the rules are still there,,the FATHER has house rules,,and we want to live in HIS house
Now understand this IF YAHSHUA exalted the FATHER always,, which HE did,,how can HE put HIMSELF over the FATHER to abolish the FATHER'S rules that were never bad in the first place,, it was us that could not keep them,,then is HE not doing the same thing that hasatan got kicked out for?? ANYONE exalting themselves above the FAHTER is disobedient YAHSHUA always pointed to the FAHTER in everything and Scripture says plainly HE is seated at the right hand not the Throne so if HE is doing away with the FATHER'S law then HE changing the Torah and destroying it
I can only assume from your reply that you do not know what it is to follow the Spirit. If you are following the Holy Spirit and stepping in His steps how is you break the Law? Are you suggesting the Holy Spirit will lead a person to sin, to be a law breaker and teach others to do so???
Come on Icebro, following the Law will not fulfill the Spirit, however following the Spirit will fulfill the Law. That is what Yeshua taught, yet it seems you claim different?
Here is a good example, Jesus was circumcised according to Jewish law, you say therefore Gentiles must do the same?
no i don't say the gentile does the same,,,if you read what Scripture says about circumcision you will see that anyone and everyone can be in the covenant,,everybody,, the stranger with you,, the foreigner ,,,everybody who wants to follow YHWH,,,and no one has ever been saved by anything but grace ,,,so the Torah says in Number 15:15 that there is one Torah (instructions) for all,, for the stranger and Yisra'el ONE TORAH
you can be in covenant but you may not keep the Feast of Passover unless you are circumcised,,the Passover is only for the house of YHWH and Torah says you must be circumcised to eat the Passover Lamb and that the lamb must not go outside the house or stay till morning,,it to be eaten that night,,,now you do not have to be circumcised to love YAHSHUA but you do according to GOD to eat the Passover Lamb
You assume way too much about me my brother the SPIRIT will lead us yes but i can pray all day and all night and have the SPIRIT but i can always still turn around and sin,,,just because someone has the SPIRIT does not mean they do not sin,,if that were true then we only need the SPIRIT and not YAHSHUA
brother the fact of the matter is that YAHSHUA walked according to HIS FATHER'S law and we should do the same you can make as many excuses as you would like about it but HE followed the Torah not the takanot which is rabbinic law that Sha'ul and YAHSHUA spoke against
see that is the problem when you do not look at what was going on then by looking into Hebrew life then,,the pharisees and scribes had made what is called takanot which basically said they can do whatever they want and their laws override GODS laws,,so when YAHSHUA spoke out against hand washing and "the LAW" HE was not talking about Torah neither was Sha'ul,,,Sha'ul was a pharisee himself and he knew full well what rabbinic law was and it was that which he spoke against cause if not then he had split personalities
When we look at the Sermon on the Mount, we have Jesus going through nine of the Ten commandments, and applying them inwardly. All commandments are covered EXCEPT for the fourth commandment.
so when YAHSHUA says you have heard to said that thou shall not murder but i say that he who is wroth with his brother is murdering does that mean that someone who is not mad with someone,, who can just kill without emotion is covered cause he was not wroth with his brother,,i can kill as long as i am not mad with or does murder still apply?
brother no dietary law was done away with if you are talking about the sheet that Kepha(Peter) saw then you are mislead if you read that chapter Ma'asei (Acts) 10 you will plainly see that it was not about food at all but about now Kepha being a Jew could now go into the house of gentiles(who by the way are only gentiles until they take on MESSIAH after that they are all grafted in branches of Yisra'el )(Yisra'el is a state of mind it means to be upright in front of YHWH (GOD) or overcomer)
so no food done away with there
the Shabbat was still kept all through the Book of Ma'ssei(Acts) here are some places well to start they were gathered at the very beginning for Shavuot but the Shabbat they gathered all the time for
Acts: 13:42-44 , 16:13 , 17:2 , 18:4 (which this one says they were in the congregations reasoning every Shabbat and won BOTH Yehudim and GREEK so it was not just the Jews in the congregations) 20:6 says that they sailed away after the Feast of Unleavened Bread,,and in 20:7 you have the word (day) added in and the greek word for week there is guess what?? Sabbatos Shabbat!! so it reads one of the Sabbaths 20:16 says he was hurrying to make it if possible to Yerushalayim for the Shavuot
so if these days and Shabbaths were done away with the Emissaries must not have gotten the message?? cause they still kept them and Sha'ul being the passionate man he was i don't see him hurrying anywhere for tradition unless it meant something to him,,,Sha'ul was a pharisee and he knew about tradition and spoke against it many times but these are not the traditions of man they are the FATHER'S Set Appointments that HE wants us to come to HIM on
understand this brother
the Shabbat brother is a shadow of what is to come as Sha'ul says it is a picture of the millennial reign with MESSIAH so it still very important seeing that has not happen yet,,also we must remember that our very first full day on this earth was Shabbat and GOD took that day off to be with us so we should return that and be with HIM
now another very important key is what James said to the brothers in Acts 15 the whole chapter but especially 20-21
he says let us tell them to abstain from these things the defilement of idols , from horing , from what is strangled , from blood and then he says in 21 that from ancient generations Mosheh has in every city those proclaiming him,being read in the congregations every SHABBAT (tell them to do these things and the rest they will get on Shabbat in the congregations)
and this is what they took to the nations all of these four things they are telling them to abstain from are from the Torah so they are still very much in effect why would the Emissaries teach people to do things and go to the congregations on Shabbat to hear Mosheh if it was done away with ,,they have much better understanding than you or i and this is what they were taking to the nations???
in all love brothers and sisters i love you and i love my MASTER MESSIAH YAHSHUA who will return,,praise HIM and HIS FATHER
i pray that you are well and safe and that MESSIAH blesses you in all your life
Also, how can you say that Yeshua/Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath? It wasn't like once he came and then the Sabbath was done away. He kept the Sabbath, and after His Resurrection, the disciples continued to follow the Sabbath. It wasn't until (about, sometime around) 326-328 AD that the Catholic church changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. God never changed His Sabbath, that was man, to suit man. Isn't it interesting that it is the ONLY commandment we are instructed to REMEMBER? God knew man would change it to the first day instead of His blessed 7th. The week never changed. There was always just 7 days. The seventh day was given to us to rest. If it was good enough for Yeshua, it's good enough for me!
Also as for circumcision, yes, in the old testament, before Yeshua, it was of the flesh, now though, after His coming it is of the heart.
None of the laws were done away with from the Old Testament. The dietary laws are still in place. Isn't it something that we eat the things that are forbidden to us, God's people, not just Jews, and the seas are dying? Lobsters were put there to clean, as were shrimp, etc,. Health issues alone in pigs should keep us from eating them! They are a cleaner, they eat other dead things, maggots, filth, and they do not sweat. Sweating is the main way of getting rid of toxins. Therefore all the toxic things in a pig just builds up! It lives in there body, in there meat.
A Jew was from the lineage of Judah, as a Levite was from Levi, etc, all were brothers of Joseph. All the brothers kept the laws, not just those of Judah's family. To say that these were only laws for Jews, really do not know Biblical history!
