Mat 6:12 ~ " And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors."...Thank you for sharing this Poem...We owe much more than we will ever be able to pay...In Christ Jesus...xo
Nice poem James, however I am surprised you would share it. If the elect are choosen, marked out, appointed and decidedly saved before the Creation of the world, then it stands to reason they never have been debtors, they have always been saved.
You see since God decided to choose just a few to save before the creation of the world and Jesus was Crucified before the Creation of the world then "your elect's" debts were paid before their debts occurred, therefore never debtors.
Hmmm...how about this : Jesus paid the debts of all mankind and now mankind is judged solely on their acceptance or rejection of Jesus.
Nice poem James, however I am surprised you would share it. If the elect are choosen, marked out, appointed and decidedly saved before the Creation of the world, then it stands to reason they never have been debtors, they have always been saved.
James replies:
According to Scripture election does not save anyone.
Election marks out certain people that WILL be saved.
The Lord did not save me until I was 25 years old, and before that I was totally spiritually dead.
Every Christian has sinned, and Jesus PURCHASED their salvation by paying for their sins with His blood, hence we were "bought with a great price", we are debtors.
Twosparrows:
You see since God decided to choose just a few to save before the creation of the world and Jesus was Crucified before the Creation of the world then "your elect's" debts were paid before their debts occurred, therefore never debtors.
James replies:
Election marked out which sinners were to be saved.
Jesus death paid for their sins about 2000 years ago, not
before that. At some time in the life of each one of God's chosen people the Holy Spirit comes and makes them come alive Spiritually, and then that person naturally desires to repent and trust in Jesus, and they do, AND THEN...........they are saved.
Twosparrows continues:
Hmmm...how about this : Jesus paid the debts of all mankind and now mankind is judged solely on their acceptance or rejection of Jesus.
Oh yes, truth is pleasing to the spirit!
James replies:
Sin is the reason that mankind is not right with God.
If Jesus paid for the sins of all people, then it would be unjust for anyone to be in Hell.
1) "According to Scripture election does not save anyone. Election marks out certain people that WILL be saved."
*Um, James, God is outside of time and all powerful. If God marks you out for salvation, you are saved, no if, ands or buts, you are saved, period.
You declare mightily the sovereignty of God then say if He elects you for salvation, you really aren't saved yet? :goofball:
2) "Sin is the reason that mankind is not right with God. If Jesus paid for the sins of all people, then it would be unjust for anyone to be in Hell."
*James, you really don't understand the Gospel. The reason mankind is not right with God and the reason they go to hell is because they either don't believe in or they reject the Grace of God : Jesus. Scripture says so.
1) "According to Scripture election does not save anyone. Election marks out certain people that WILL be saved."
*Um, James, God is outside of time and all powerful. If God marks you out for salvation, you are saved, no if, ands or buts, you are saved, period.
You declare mightily the sovereignty of God then say if He elects you for salvation, you really aren't saved yet?
James replies:
Yes, that is correct. Election saves no one.
You are forgetting that God is holy, and that means that Sin MUST be paid for. God is perfectly just, and that requires payment for sin.
We have the Father decreeing all things, including choosing the elect. Then you have Jesus dying for them, and paying for their sins at the cross. Then you have the Holy Spirit entering into the elect at some point in time, and making them into new creatures, who suddenly desire to repent and trust in Jesus.
2) "Sin is the reason that mankind is not right with God. If Jesus paid for the sins of all people, then it would be unjust for anyone to be in Hell."
Twosparrows said:
*James, you really don't understand the Gospel. The reason mankind is not right with God and the reason they go to hell is because they either don't believe in or they reject the Grace of God : Jesus. Scripture says so.
James replies:
The reason mankind goes to Hell, and the reason they are not right with God is their SIN. Sin is what separates man from God.
"for all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God."
There are actually two ways a person could be right with God.
1.Live a perfectly sinless life.
2. Have your sins paid for by Jesus.
I mean what you say is correct, but WHY does man need a savior in the first place???? Because of their sin.
"You are forgetting that God is holy, and that means that Sin MUST be paid for. God is perfectly just, and that requires payment for sin."
twosparrows replies,
*James you are forgetting or don't know that Jesus was crucified from the foundation of the world, (1Peter 1:20 "He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake,") and you claim to be chosen to be saved before the creation of the world (Eph1:4 " For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to the holy and blameless in his sight.") However you misinterpret the Eph. Scripture, notice it says we are chosen " 'in' him", it does Not say : chosen " 'to be in' him". Therefore according to Reformed Doctrine the elect have never been debtors, however this is not in agreement with Scripture. But if you are open, notice that it all makes sense when correctly interpreted : Scripture is clear, the unmerited Grace of God preceded the Law, it has always existed, it wasn't created at the Cross, but revealed (read Hebrews) Therefore sin has been paid for since before the creation of the world.
James shared,
"The reason mankind goes to Hell, and the reason they are not right with God is their SIN. Sin is what separates man from God."
twosparrows replies,
James, People go to hell because they reject the Grace of God (Jesus). Enoch, Noah, Abraham all believed in Jesus (the Grace of God), they just didn't know His name.
James shared,
mean what you say is correct, but WHY does man need a savior in the first place???? Because of their sin.
twosparrows replies,
James, I should be asking you that question, your the one chosen to be saved before the creation of the world. God already picked you, what do you need a savior for?
James the truth is, Gods Grace is extends to all mankind, those who reject it will be used for the good of those who accept it. And because of Gods foreknowledge, He doesn't get mixed up who is who.
James wrote - "We have the Father decreeing all things, including choosing the elect. Then you have Jesus dying for them, and paying for their sins at the cross. Then you have the Holy Spirit entering into the elect at some point in time, and making them into new creatures, who suddenly desire to repent and trust in Jesus."
James, according to your view, when does ones belief in Christ occur during this election process?
