It does not mean mankind is totally depraved, it does not mean man has total inability to respond to God thru his word.
The answer is found in this truth:
Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Ge 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man�s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
When Adam sinned the Glory of God left man, and Satan became mankind's dominator spiritually, but the lord made away, that until Jesus came to the earth and lived and then died and was resurrected, that mankind could walk with God.
Yes man was dead spiritually, but the word tells us how man could walk in the light of God's word, in making this statement, I am not saying or insinuating man can save himself.
This post is to show how man walked with God prior to the resurrection.
0 � My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings.
21 Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart.
22 For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh.
23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.
24 Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee.
25 Let thine eyes look right on, and let thine eyelids look straight before thee.
26 Ponder the path of thy feet, and let all thy ways be established.
27 Turn not to the right hand nor to the left: remove thy foot from evil.
1 � My son, attend unto my wisdom, and bow thine ear to my understanding:
2 That thou mayest regard discretion, and that thy lips may keep knowledge.
3 For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil:
4 But her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a twoedged sword.
5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.
6 Lest thou shouldest ponder the path of life, her ways are moveable, that thou canst not know them.
7 Hear me now therefore, O ye children, and depart not from the words of my mouth.
Pro 4:20 � My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings.
21 Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart.
22 For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh.
23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.
24 Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee.
25 Let thine eyes look right on, and let thine eyelids look straight before thee.
26 Ponder the path of thy feet, and let all thy ways be established.
27 Turn not to the right hand nor to the left: remove thy foot from evil.
1 � My son, attend unto my wisdom, and bow thine ear to my understanding:
The word of God told mankind how to do exactly, what some say, and want you to believe, that man can not repsond to the word of God.
Number one to keep the word of God before your eyes!!
Number two keep it in your ears.!!!
Number three keep them in the midst of your heart!!!
Number four speak these word out of your mouth, for they will produce faith, and that faith was accounted unto whosever did that as rightousness!!
We will make another post to illustrate this principle!!
James you keep posting scriptures that have nothing to do with man not having the ability to respond to God, for instance 1st cor. 2:14 is pure evidence totally against your stand.
Man is not a natural man. he is spiritual and that is very clear in this context, and the spirit of God communes with man in his spirit.
Man was before the fall spirit and after the fall he was a spirit being.
James our confidence is in scripture not in what Calvinist call church history.
The church has never changed, so if you want to refer to church history, refer to church history that looks like the bible.
Here is a verse where Paul says NATURAL MAN DOES NOT HAVE THE ABILTY:
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Now, I have posted this verse FIVE TIMES, and YET, you STILL act like no one has shown you anything that says that fallen mankind does not have the ability!
Jesus says, "NO ONE CAN COME TO ME UNLESS", and I bet the next reply by both of you will say, we have the ability and anyone can come to Jesus!! Right?
Hey, I bet right now there is someone who is seeking God, right?
Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Paul said NO ONE SEEKS FOR GOD, so I am betting that Twosparrows and Phillipjohn will BOTH SAY that there are people who are seeking after God!!
And since both of you contradict Scripture over and over here are some more Scriptures for you to think about:
Man is constituted a sinner by his relationship with Adam Psa 51:5; Psa 58:3; Rom 5:18-19
He is therefore unable
1. To do anything good
Gen 6:5; Job 15:14-16; Psa 130:3; Psa 143:2; Pro 20:9; Ecc 7:20; Isa 64:6; Jer 13:23; John 3:19; Rom 3:9-12; Jam 3:8; 1John 1:8
2. To believe in God (or come to him)
John 6:44; John 6:65; John 8:43-45; John 10:26; John 12:37-41
3. To understand the truth
John 14:17; 1Cor 2:14
4. To seek God Rom 3:10-11
He is dead in sins
Gen 2:16-17; John 3:5-7; Eph 2:1-3; Col 2:13
He is blinded and corrupt in his heart
Gen 6:5; Gen 8:21; Ecc 9:3; Jer 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; John 3:19-21; Rom 8:7-8; Eph 4:17-19; Eph 5:8
He is captive to sin and Satan
John 8:34; John 8:44; Rom 6:20; 2Tim 2:25-26; Titus 3:3; 1John 5:19
He performs actions freely according to his nature, but his nature is wholly evil
Job 14:4; Mat 7:16-18; Mat 12:33; Mark 7:21-23; Jam 1:13-14 Dead in sin, means DEAD.....unable to repent, unable to believe in Jesus, unable to understand the things of God, DEAD!
I don't see these verses working for you, here is why:
Johh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
James,
All these two verses say, is no one goes directly to the Father, the Father directs everyone through Jesus.
Even if we put the emphasis on 'drawing', the verse still does not address whether or not after being drawn to Jesus, a person can refuse. Remember where Jesus says 'Blessed is the man who does not fall away on the account of me' (paraphrase from memory)
James, reformed doctrine goes beyond scripture. If you want to believe it that is fine, but don't expect me to believe it unless you can show me in Scripture. (Just like that article you posted about the church and interpreting scripture)
Johh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Twosparrow said:
James,
All these two verses say, is no one goes directly to the Father, the Father directs everyone through Jesus.
James replies:
No, it does NOT say that! Those two verses are JESUS saying that" NO ONE CAN come to me UNLESS..."
Twosparrows said:
Even if we put the emphasis on 'drawing', the verse still does not address whether or not after being drawn to Jesus, a person can refuse.
James replies:
Now, you are changing the subject! If you want to put the emphasis on the word "drawing", the greek word translated as drawing, is used only one other place in the New Testament, and it was when they "dragged" stephen to the edge of town to stone him to death. So the verse COULD be translated as
"No one can come to me unless the Father drags them".
Perhaps if I rephrase this so that you can see, I was rather clumsy in my last post.
This verse means: The Father decides according to His good pleasure (conditional or unconditional) who to invite. No one comes directly to Him. Everyone has to go through Jesus to have access to the Father. The Father drags them to Jesus. (to Jesus, not through Jesus). Now remember the parables : The Father invites to the feast, some refuse, then some are "compelled " to some come, and some of those not dressed in Christ were thrown out.
Some are invited, some are 'dragged', some refuse, some accept yet refuse Jesus, then they are refused.
James, let me provide you with a crude example of "draw": A little girl at the fair says, daddy daddy I have to go to the bathroom right now, I am about to pea in my pants. So the father 'drags' his little girl to her mother, so the mother can take her into the womans restroom.
KJV John 6:44 ~ [ No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:] and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV John 6:65 ~ And he said, Therefore [ said I unto you,]that [ no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.]
~ First off the WORD is very Clear in what it ( Jesus ) says here...I Agree with James on this point...not that it matters to anyone here...Second...It is my Belief, Understandig & Personal Expierance that the Father ( Draws / Calls ) those He chooses...I base that conclusion on the above referanced verses...
After that Draw / Call...We have the " Choice " to Accept or Decline the Draw / Call / Gift...etc...etc....etc...
KJV Matt 24:14~ For many are called, but few [are] chosen.
Anywho...Yall hava a GOD / Spirit filled day & a Blessed weekend...luv Yall...xo
