...right after Christ Died knew what the correct Interpretation of Scripture was?
I mean...they were hearing it straight from the "horse's mouth" (so to speak) and even up to the time that The Church decided what was and wasn't Inspired Scripture -- they had to know what was the correct Interpretation...right?
I mean how else could they choose which Letters and Books went into The New Testament if they did not already know what it meant?
What I am getting to is if they did (and it's obvious that they had to know)...when did they Lose that knowledge? I mean that we do not hold any One Church as having that Knowledge...of holding that Full Deposit of Faith and use Scripture to Interpret Scripture.
What happen? Where did that Knowledge go? And How was it Lost?
When one starts from a wrong premise ; either nothing else makes sense or you reach the wrong conclusion. The premise in this case is that the church is a secretarian organization. However, If you start from the premise that the church is individual believers each filled with the Spirit of Jesus who leads as one would lead a orchestra of musicians then it all makes sense.
The first christian secretarian church started off well accomplishing a number of good things. However they became politicized and as the saying goes: Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
It is only in recent times, since vatican II has this secretarian church begun to regain its integrity.
Ever since the fall of this secretarian church to the present time we have had scripture as a standard for the Spirit filled believers who are the very body of Christ here on earth, ie.. The Church, which has existed before and will exist after all secretarian churches and will exist in heaven as the Body of Christ.
I was hoping to open up a real discussion with valid logical input.
�When one starts from a wrong premise ; either nothing else makes sense or you reach the wrong conclusion. The premise in this case is that the church is a secretarian organization.�
What exactly does that mean?
�The premise in this case is that the church is a secretarian organization.�
What�s a �secretarian organization�? Are you trying to say that The Church was a secret organization? And that this �secret organization� did ok for awhile but then became corrupt and�what
�they lost everything that Jesus left them? The Full Deposit of Faith�all the Truths given to Her by Christ and supposedly protected by The Holy Spirit were what
�lost and then 1000 years or so later individual Christian �found� this Full Deposit of Faith individually and kind of like an orchestra learning how to play their instruments without any teachers
�these individual �musicians� got together and learned how to play a symphony without any teachers�mystically and somehow �without a conductor and somehow�magically have been able to play together in Harmony? Wait�Christians have not been able to �play� in Harmony ever since they regained all those �lost� Truths.
Wait�I think I understand now (maybe). Everything God gave His Church that Christ started was lost because
�Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely�
And not even The Holy Spirit was able to stop this from happening, but once these individual Christians were able to rebel against this �secretarian� church and by reading Scripture and coming up with their own interpretations they have �resurrected� the church that Christ started!
Chuck�if that is true�why is there so much contention about what Scripture says such as when Scripture says things like:
��the Church is the Pillar�� ��this is My Body�� and many other verses that these individual Christians have �saved� from this �secretarian� �corrupt� church?
But back to my original question:
How exactly was it lost? Did they kill those that were suppose to hold on to this Deposit of Faith and keep it vouchsafed and not add to or take anything away from it?
I agree that The Church was in need of Reforming. I disagree that it was a Secret Church. But show me where or how She �lost� everything that Christ left Her. Everything that Christ Commanded Her to TEACH! Everything that Christ left His Bride.
I really would like an intelligent conversation. Not trying to be smart or contentious, but I really think this would be a excellent Talking Point. Take you time�think about it. Ask your Pastor�search the Internet. Let�s really have a discussion�not some �spaced out�far out man� nonsensical trash.
Here let me start you off. How about this:
The Holy Spirit was sooo tried after everything. What with The Resurrection and Tranfiguration and Accension and giving out of all those gifts�that it had to take a break. Say this break was for over 1500 years (call it a much needed vacation).
During those years The Church Jesus started became corrupt and when Constantine made Her the Official Religion of The Roman Empire, all kinds of pagan influences came into her and that is when a select few Christians went underground and held unto everything that Christ left His Church.
In the meantime the church that was left behind and still in power (but very corrupt) Rewrote History to make it �seem� that she was the real church Christ started and tried to burn everything that would prove different. She tried to keep Christians from reading Scripture because if they did they would �wise up� and go�Oh MY!!
Finally after hiding underground and holding services in abandoned Winn Dixie stores (much as they are today) they came forward when Luther was �Inspired� by The Holy Spirit (who came back from His Vacation) to rebel against �this Tyranny� and that is when the church as we know it today began to grow and return to it�s Full Glory!!
We can call it �The Perdition of The Holy Spirit�! Sounds plausible?
Tom Hanks can play one of the millions of individuals who have interpreted Scripture and saved The Church.
True story, ts~ Are you baptized in the Holy Spirit, too?
Jesus kept everything simple when He walked the earth and referred to us as sheep and we all know that sheep need help staying out of ditches, right? So, in His simplicity that He displayed and spoke in ways which sheep herders, farmers and the rest of us would understand, He made sure that the Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth manual had the exact instructions it it for us. I guess a God who can make something outta nothing is big enough to make nothing outta something~that men say. :rolleyes:
I get weary of people trying to complicate what God meant for ALL of His people to hear~"Let him who has ears to hear, hear what the Spirit is saying to the church."
No offense intended at you Arch~just anyone in general who makes it clear as mud, when God already sent ONE who lives in us and teaches us ALL things. :purpleangel:
"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."
I would say that last part is backward, the Holy Spirit left the "church" because of the huge amount of compromises/backsliding that crept into the church. And as far as the early church knowing what was truth, they had the old testament to compare it to. They didn't just "decide" that "this" was "inspired" and "this" wasn't. If it didn't agree with the scriptures they had already, then it wasn't truth. But that happened quite sometime after Jesus had died. Anyway, all the apostles except Paul heard it from Jesus Himself and wrote in down during their lives. If you can't trust the apostles, who can you trust?!:laugh:
I do believe that the church of God was persecuted by the catholic church, and I believe that the catholic church is trying to make up for their error, but they don't get to be "God's church" just because they're the oldest. The organization has too many manly traditions in place of God's commandments, and Daniel/Revelation points to the historic roman catholic church as one of the anti-Christ powers in the last days. It's the only church/political power in history that fits the description. People may call my denomination a cult, but the catholic church fits that description way better. One man at the head that has the authority? A church that changes God's times and laws so they can follow pseudo-pagan traditions? I do believe that most of God's true followers are in the catholic church, but it's a temple made without hands/denominations. We are God's church. I do not have to have any religious loyalty to a denomination that disregards the word of God, even if they claim to be the only church Christ started. I don't have to go to them for truth. Jesus is the rock and source of truth.
and I agree with some of your points but, if we could stay on subject...how did the Church "lose" that knowledge.
Joey, Jesus spoke in Parables but He told His Apostles in no uncertain terms and in �plain� language exactly what He meant. The forty days He spent with them before Ascending was spent preparing them for their Missions.
When you say that God has sent
�ONE who lives in us and teaches us ALL things.�
I assume you are speaking of The Holy Spirit. Well, why does He give you one interpretation and another Christian a different one? One or the other is confused�it�s not The Holy Spirit. Even Scripture warns us about Personal Interpretation.
Don�t Hit, Christ promised that His Church would prevail and be here when He Returned. Christ also gave His Bride The Holy Spirit to �Ensure that She would remain Inviolate�. I doubt that The Holy Spirit would �bolt� and leave Her to Her own.
The Early Church did not have The New Testament until 100�s of years later. They were able to Decide which was or wasn�t Inspired because She Knew The Truths given Her by Christ Himself. She just compared what She knew to be True with what was written.
�If you can't trust the apostles, who can you trust?!�
Absolutely Right!
But, what about How or when did these Truths can lost or stolen or pawned or whatever happened to them?
Shared ~ the Holy Spirit left the "church" because...
I was taught The Holy Spirit does NOT leave Us [ the Church ] until the Last Gentile is Saved...Then Christ Jesus* Returns in All his Glory...I'll find the Scripture...Gots get goin...Yall hava Blessed ThanksGiving...xo
That explains a lot of things. You�re speaking some language I�m not familiar with. At first I was thinking that you meant �Secretariat� the racehorse, but that made even less sense. I really think you meant to use the word �secretarial�; a �Secretarial Organization� (which still does not make sense).
To make things easier and hopefully we can understand each other better�might I suggest that we use The English language? ( :peace: )
AS for definition of the word Church:
How about two�One is the church that you visit and have services � the one that has a name above it�such as �I�ll meet you at _________ (insert church�s name here).
The other:
The congregation�the believers that make up that churches body.
The Church that I am referring to is The Church that Christ started. The One that He left Instructions with�the One that He Commanded to TEACH�that Church.
Be careful on you bike ride. Try not to get �molested� by all those women that want you (such a burden you must have)!
Weren't those that Christ commanded to teach, the disciples? Matthew 28:19-20. And all future believers? Which make up the Church or body of Christ? Is this the Church you are referring to?
They lost the knowledge by killing all the people that didn't want to compromise, lol. Back then, you become a christian, and a week/month/year later, you're providing lighting at a Caesar's feast with your flaming body or feeding the lions by hand...and foot. Not much time to learn/teach. Then there's a massive influx of unconverted pagans, and THEN the "church" picks up where the roman government left off. Sounds like a good excuse for losing the truth to me!
