Author	Thread: OK BIBLE SCHOLARS, LETS SEE WHO CAN ANSWER THIS SIMPLE QUESTION ! ! !
Admin	OK BIBLE SCHOLARS, LETS SEE WHO CAN ANSWER THIS SIMPLE QUESTION ! ! ! Posted : 12 Nov, 2010 10:18 PM How could Jesus forgive sins as he did in the Gospels BEFORE he went to the cross? :rolleyes: Post Reply
View Profile History	OK BIBLE SCHOLARS, LETS SEE WHO CAN ANSWER THIS SIMPLE QUESTION ! ! ! Posted : 13 Nov, 2010 03:30 AM Two ways, but if I think of more, I'll offer them. First, he could simply have forgiven them. As they say, "It's good to be God." He instituted a propitiatory sacrifice, but he certainly wasn't bound by it. Just like he washes away original sin through baptism. He instituted the sacrament, but he's not constrained by it. What I want to say is, God can whatever he wants whenever he wants. Second, the divine nature of Christ is essentially atemporal. From the divine perspective, every moment of history is immediately present to his conscious mind in the eternal now. So, the cross was already present to the divine mind before he ever created the universe. He didn't have to "wait" for it to happen in time before he could apply its results. From His perspective, it was always happening. Post Reply
View Profile History	OK BIBLE SCHOLARS, LETS SEE WHO CAN ANSWER THIS SIMPLE QUESTION ! ! ! Posted : 13 Nov, 2010 07:45 AM @Benedictus Great post...short and to the point...kudos to you although I am not sure what to do with a kudo except pass them on. The first is interesting, at first glance I don't buy it; for in my mind it would like a judge being above the law. Although God is more than a judge his is the owner and creator Yet this subject is in the context of transgressing the Law. I agree that God can do what ever he pleases, but it pleased Him to deal with sin using the cross. I would think to be true to His nature, justic being one of his attributes He would operate within the system He created. The second...Yes that would be my choice! Post Reply
View Profile History	OK BIBLE SCHOLARS, LETS SEE WHO CAN ANSWER THIS SIMPLE QUESTION ! ! ! Posted : 13 Nov, 2010 08:10 AM Two: You write, "The first is interesting, at first glance I don't buy it; for in my mind it would like a judge being above the law." Yes and no. On the one hand, God cannot transgress his own moral commandments since they are a reflection of his omnibenevolent nature. He can't act unjustly for example. He can't change his mind about the immorality of evil acts. On the other hand, God is free to perform any morally good act that he wants to perform. The cross - a morally good act par excellence - is one way of saving human beings. But God isn't limited to that. Most theologians down through the ages have said that God could have saved human beings in any number of ways. He could have simply done it by divine fiat: "You're saved." I think he saves people like that all the time, in fact. If babies are conceived in a state of original sin for example, and they die before birth, then God simply saves them (I hope) in virtue of his goodness. He removes their original sin without baptism. Post Reply
View Profile History	OK BIBLE SCHOLARS, LETS SEE WHO CAN ANSWER THIS SIMPLE QUESTION ! ! ! Posted : 13 Nov, 2010 08:34 AM SIN WAS FORGIVEN IN THE OLD COVENANT. GOD CANNOT DO ANYTHING HE WANTS, HE IS BOUND TO HIS WORD. Post Reply
View Profile History	OK BIBLE SCHOLARS, LETS SEE WHO CAN ANSWER THIS SIMPLE QUESTION ! ! ! Posted : 13 Nov, 2010 08:40 AM And his word is identical with his nature; hence, he cannot act in a way contrary to his nature. Which is exactly what I said above. Post Reply
View Profile History	OK BIBLE SCHOLARS, LETS SEE WHO CAN ANSWER THIS SIMPLE QUESTION ! ! ! Posted : 13 Nov, 2010 09:21 AM @Ben I personally feel God is not free to perform any " good moarl act" where such a act would conflict with His justice. Thus the cross. Jesus having been crucified from the foundations of the earth God has defined His own boundries from the beginning. Although I do agree he could of choosen different in the beginning had he decided to do so. As for babies a different but clearly related topic ; Scripture being silent on the matter, we have nothing left to do but rely on the Nature of God which is always favorable forwards those innocent of nothing more than being born into original sin. Post Reply
View Profile History	OK BIBLE SCHOLARS, LETS SEE WHO CAN ANSWER THIS SIMPLE QUESTION ! ! ! Posted : 13 Nov, 2010 09:51 AM Two: You write, "I personally feel God is not free to perform any "good moral act" where such a act would conflict with His justice." Agreed, but keep in mind that in God; that is, in the divine essence itself, there is absolute simplicity. We talk about God's mercy, justice, love, power and wisdom as though these were separable attributes within God. But we know theologically that this is not the case. Why? Because God is utterly simple: consisting of no parts whatsoever. So, although we say things like, "God is powerful," or, "God is just," it is actually more accurate to say, "God is power," and "God is just," followed by the careful qualification, "God is identical with his attributes, and in him, these attributes themselves, though spoken of in the plural by human beings, are essentially one in God." Simply stated: God is God. You also write, "Thus the cross. Jesus having been crucified from the foundations of the earth God has defined His own boundaries from the beginning. Although I do agree he could of chosen different in the beginning had he decided to do so." I agree. So, salvation occurred prior to the cross because God applies Christ's merits to those who have faith atemporally. He forgives Abraham in virtue of Christ's sacrifice, which to him is present now, but to Abraham, would not be accomplished for over a thousand years. And, "As for babies a different but clearly related topic ; Scripture being silent on the matter, we have nothing left to do but rely on the Nature of God which is always favorable forwards those innocent of nothing more than being born into original sin." Original sin is enough to deprive one of the beatific vision for all eternity. God either saves them through some means that has not been revealed to us, or he does not save them. Post Reply
View Profile History	OK BIBLE SCHOLARS, LETS SEE WHO CAN ANSWER THIS SIMPLE QUESTION ! ! ! Posted : 13 Nov, 2010 10:06 AM While it is true that Jesus died on the cross for our sins he did not pay the price to forgive us of our sins but He paid the price with His blood to redeem us. It was the penalty for our nature to be opposed to God that was paid not the forgiveness for our behavior. I do not believe that it is only through the cross that we can be forgiven for our behavior. If that were the case then wouldn't there still need to be a sacrifice for every time we committed a sin? We need to be aware that there is a difference between sin and sinning. There is a difference between a sinner and a believer that occasionally commits a sin. If we agree with Romans that we are saved because it is by grace we are saved through faith then couldn't anyone that approaches God with faith be saved? What about Abraham and Moses and the Prophets? Weren't they saved before the cross? Thunder Post Reply
View Profile History	OK BIBLE SCHOLARS, LETS SEE WHO CAN ANSWER THIS SIMPLE QUESTION ! ! ! Posted : 13 Nov, 2010 10:41 AM Well then Ben it seems we agree! Isn't that fun for a change! ( not you personally ; in general).....well maybe for me ...Lol Post Reply
View Profile History	OK BIBLE SCHOLARS, LETS SEE WHO CAN ANSWER THIS SIMPLE QUESTION ! ! ! Posted : 13 Nov, 2010 11:58 AM @thunder still chewing...... Post Reply

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