Hi folks this is my first post here so hello to you all hope all is good.
Id like to get peoples opions on the subject of predestination in God,i think there is a few ideas out there on this so id love to hear them and compare them to mine,i think this will cause some debate,thanks for your time.
jaylad, I'm not sure about this subject. Hopefully someone can show me in scripture what the truth about it is. As you can see, as usual mr.row is too busy attacking P.J. to offer any helpful insight. Great post!
Ok thanks for your views on this matter and id agree it is a doctorine and one that has different views if you read in ephesians1:4-5 it reads just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,having predestined us to the adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself,according to the good pleasure of His will.
Now id encourage you to also read on down to verse 14.
So this is telling me that God chose us to be saved and not we chose Him,not of our doing but of His good pleasure.
Ok i dont clame to be an expert on Gods word so im here for help on this subject so id like to here what you guys and ladies have to say on this matter,
The quick answer to this question is yes; God is omnipresent and omnipotent and knows everything. However, to try to explain God and how He works, through our own intellect, often leads to wrong conclusions. This article will focus on Biblical scripture that will give us a starting point in trying to understand an unfathomable God. The real answers come from Him by divine revelation.
Romans 11:33-36 (KJV) says this about God:
�O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are His judgments, and HIS WAYS PAST FINDING OUT! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be the glory forever. Amen� (also Isaiah 40:13; Job 36:22).
The book of Job says this about the un-knowability of God:
�But how can a man be in the right before God?
�It is God who removes the mountains, they know not how,
When He overturns them in His anger;
Who shakes the earth out of its place,
And its pillars tremble;
Who commands the sun not to shine,
And sets a seal upon the stars;
Who alone stretches out the heavens
And tramples down the waves of the sea;
Who makes the Bear, Orion and the Pleiades,
And the chambers of the south;
Who does great things, unfathomable [literally �until there is no searching out�]
And wondrous works without number.
�Were He to pass by me, I would not see Him;
Were He to move past me, I would not perceive Him� (Job 9:1-11).
Thus, in examining the question of God�s knowledge of the future and how He deals with it, we must remember we are dealing with God, the creator of the ends of the universe. His ways are past finding out to the natural man. All man can really do to his own benefit is to ignore speculation about this or that and:
�Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean upon your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths (Proverbs 3:5�6).
However, the scripture does provide some clues. When we are dealing with God�s knowledge of the future we must necessarily examine the doctrines of predestination and election. Man wants to know if his future is fatalistically predestined to the point he has no control. Others say that if God gave us freewill, how can we be predestined to do this or that? People in their speculations come up with many theories. They say God is limited and cannot know the future before it happens. They ask why, if God has this special knowledge, why doesn�t He reveal it to us? Why would God predestine some to good and others to bad-what�s the point? And if He did predestine people that way, is there any way to break out of that unbearable cage?
One reason God does not reveal the future to us is that we would not understand it if He did. God has a unique non-human way of looking at things:
�Do not call to mind the former things,
Or ponder things of the past.
�Behold, I will do something NEW,
Now it will spring forth;
Will you not be aware of it?
I will even make a roadway in the wilderness,
Rivers in the desert� (Isaiah 43:18-19).
And:
�THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD,
AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN,
ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM� (1 Corinthians 2:9; Isaiah 64:4, 65:17).
When God moves or says something to man, it is something the man has never even considered. It�s like if you wanted a bicycle for transportation and thought your life would be fulfilled if only you had one; you�ve even figured out the color and make of the bike. You get up the next day and find a Lexus in your driveway. That is how God works; He always gives us a little more than we asked for. That is why it would be difficult to reveal this kind of knowledge to man because man�s thinking is skewed so as to believe in limitations rather than an unlimited God.
The most obvious scriptural example of election and predestination is found in the Old Testament nation of Israel. They were God�s chosen people. In effect He said �I am only moving on behalf of Israel; the pagan nations can have their gods and their ways, just don�t intermingle with them� (see Deuteronomy 4). And so the history of Israel went. When they served God they defeated their pagan enemies and had peace. When they did not follow His law, God stirred up the surrounding nations who would defeat Israel and cause famine and pestilence. Even though Israel was predestined and elected to be God�s people, they never obtained what he had planned for them.
Did God know the future of Israel? Yes, He even predicted it (Deuteronomy 31:14-22). But in this case it had a reason. He wanted to show that man in himself could not fulfill the Law of God thus necessitating a Savior who could.
Knowledge of the future is also indicated in the following verse of scripture:
�God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to HIS purpose� (Romans 8:28). So God who knows all things has provided a way that if we deviate from HIS predetermined path He re-does His predetermination to lead us back to the right path, which is the path chosen for us to walk.
As for predestination, this word is used only with reference to God�s plan or purpose of salvation. The Greek word for predestine is found in the following passages in the New Testament (Ephesians 1:5, 11; Romans 8:29; Acts 4:23-31; 1 Corinthians 2:7) and they all relate to God�s plan of salvation, and are thus silent on any other form of personal predestination. In other words God has predestined His plan of salvation and if you follow with Him in that plan you will partake in what He has predestined. The Word of God will not fall to the ground unfulfilled.
The Old Testament is replete with references to choosing and election; they all apply to the nation of Israel and God�s covenant with Abraham (see Gen. 21:12; Ex. 9:16; 33:19; Deut. 10:15; 32:8; Josh. 11:20; 1 Sam. 12:22; 2 Chr. 6:6; Ps. 33:12; 65:4; 78:68; 135:4; Isa. 41:1�10; Jer. 1:5). When God makes a covenant or agreement with man, it is predestined not to fail.
For purpose of explanation, the Israel referred to in the Old Testament was the physical nation of Israel. After Christ and the initiation of the New Covenant, physical Israel became spiritual Israel as salvation was opened to the Jews and Gentiles alike; the Jews, the physical nation of Israel were no longer afforded their unique position of being God�s special, chosen nation. They were thus put on equal footing with the Gentiles (Romans 9:2-8).
Paul says in Romans 2:28-29 that:
�For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter�.
God has a predestined plan for mankind to obtain salvation and walk on with God until they are conformed to the image of Christ.
�For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified� (Romans 8:29-30). The choosing is up to God, He is God.
That distinction is made clear in the Bible. In Revelation Chapter 7, the 144,000, 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel (the numbers are symbolic), have been sealed and are sitting before God. John, the author of Revelation, than goes on and sees another group:
[John says] �After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands� (Revelation 7:9). The 144,000 and the great multitude were separated.
Revelation speaks of the first and second resurrections. Christ was the first of the resurrected Sons. Others will follow. The first resurrection is described as follows:
�Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection (referring to those who sat on the thrones). Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection;� they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years� (Revelation 20:1-6). It can be speculated that those chosen ones had to chose to be chosen. Many are called, few are chosen.
John goes on in verses 11-15 to describe that after the thousand years, all of the dead would be brought to life and would be judged according to their deeds, written in the Book of Life. Daniel 12 says that those whose names are �written in the book� will be rescued.
�Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt [abhorrence]� (Daniel 12:1-2).
�Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand (Daniel 12:10). Again the category is chosen by the free will of the man, not the predestination of God.
One additional scripture which points out the difference between the two groups is:
�When he [Jesus] shall come to be GLORIFIED IN HIS SAINTS, and to BE ADMIRED IN ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE (2 Thessalonians 1:10). This denotes that Jesus will be fully formed in His Saints, the Body of Christ, to be admired by the believers, those who have been saved.
By way of explanation, there is a group who will be conformed to Christ�s very nature; and another group who are saved and given eternal life as they were promised by God when they accepted Christ into their hearts.
Upon examination of the scriptures, Old and New Testaments, it appears that man has caused God great disappointment and pain. He created man. He likens the relationship to a bridegroom with the unfaithful bride. He mourns over sin. He lashes out in jealous rage. He likens Israel to whoredom. He unwillingly curses them and allows other nations run over them. Christ wept over Jerusalem, what it had become. Would God predestine something that would cause Him enormous suffering?
One explanation is that God in his great omnipotence, having the ability to know everything all at once and be everywhere at once, chose to forget or disregard the future in hope that man could learn righteousness and be pleasing to Him. He chose to treat the future as though it didn�t exist leaving man to create his own future. He allowed man to exercise his freewill to determine the future. This principle is confirmed by God�s ability to throw our sins into the �Sea of Forgetfulness�; and He says �their sins I will remember no more�. He could remember them, but He has chosen not to.
Scripture says that Christ did not regard equality with God as a thing to be grasped but humbled Himself to the will of God as it pertained to man (Philippians 2:5-8). This indicates that God chose to make a creation where He decides not to refer to His all knowing nature, giving man freewill to determine results. Although He is probably able to consult His crystal ball and peek at how the future turns out, He has limited Himself not to do that. He always leaves open the option to change any future result even if that future is predetermined by God. Through it all, however, He does remember His overall plan of bringing many Sons to glory through Christ and remains omnipresent as to fulfilling that predetermined future.
Examples of God�s predestination being changed by the intervention of man are recorded in the scriptures. In Abraham�s time God predestined to destroy the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and told Abraham what he intended to do. Abraham challenged God�s predestined future by bargaining with God asking Him if He would spare the cities if there were as few as 10 righteous men therein. God turned away from His predestination and promised Abraham that if there were indeed a handful of righteous men in Sodom/Gomorrah he would relent and save the cities. He even sent angels to check out the situation. However, in the end, the only righteous men He found were Lot and his family. The cities were destroyed but could have been saved through Abraham�s intervention (Genesis 18:20-19:29).
Likewise Moses saved the entire nation of Israel by intervening and changing God�s mind about a situation. Recorded in Exodus 33 God became angry with Israel and vowed to destroy the entire nation, leaving only Moses to carry on the chosen nation. Moses interceded with God and God changed His mind and decided not to destroy the people. Similarly in Numbers 21 God again became angry with Israel and set to destroy them, sending fiery serpents among them. Moses interceded with God to stop the carnage. God said He would relent if Moses made a bronze serpent and held it up upon a standard. Moses did so and it came about that all who looked upon the bronze serpent were spared. Again God changed His mind, His predestination.
This is consistent with the idea that anything written in predestination can be changed. It seems as if even what is written in the Bible as sure to happen can change. Perhaps God writes a certain future but always leaves open the possibility that the outcome can be changed by prayer and intercession. This can be true even of the prophecies and predictions contained in the Book of Revelation. Things do not have to be as bad as they are predicted if man repents and humbles himself to the Lord. This is borne out in the Book of Jonah. God intended to destroy the city of Nineveh and simply sent Jonah to warn them. However, Nineveh repented and God saved the entire wicked city. In 2 Kings 20 God intended to kill King Hezekiah by striking him with a fatal illness. The prophet Isaiah interceded and God changed His mind and allowed the King 16 years more of life.
Thus it seems that God cannot or chooses not to predestine man�s will. He always leaves His predetermination subject to change. The only thing that remains predestined is God�s overall will for humanity, that it becomes conformed to His will in the kingdom of God. How and when we get there is ultimately up to us who know Him. Always remember His thoughts are not our thoughts. Anything that is done or not done is all God�s overwhelming love for humanity, a love that if He had His way none would perish. It is not God that creates the evil in this world but through the fallen nature of man who inherited Satan�s nature after the fall of man from the Paradise.
A wise man once said �the wicked destroy themselves�. They don�t need intervention from God to do evil. It�s in their nature to do wrong. All the evil in this world that denies that Christ was and is the resurrected Son of God causes man to seek his own way rather than God�s. Disaster is always the answer for not accepting God�s will over our own. So we could say that man creates his own predetermination. God�s predetermination that the Kingdom of God will come on this earth never changes. God is the driver of the buggy. If we want to ride along He is willing to allow us (from the movie �Mulholland Drive�). The truth is that man makes his own future. The fact that God knows the beginning from the end has no bearing on that.
One cannot help but realize this article raises more questions than it answers. Remember, God�s ways are unknowable to us in our fallen state. The only real answers come directly from God where He lives in the realm of the Spirit (Heaven if you will). And He reveals them only when we are ready to receive them. So it is to us, not to wonder about the future, predestination, election and the like, but to look up, for our salvation draws nigh. There is nothing hidden that won�t be revealed. And all who sincerely believe in the gift of grace, eternal life is theirs if they will only believe. If we truly believe, our life on this earth will be much less complicated. A wise man once said that �the worship of God is the answer to a thousand questions�.
If God picked and choose who would be saved, {predestinated} then God would be showing great favor to His chosen. That would make God a liar of his own word for He has stated, he is not a respecter of people or persons.
Acts 10:34 �Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Ephesians 1:4 �According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
This is a favorite verse for the Predestination camp to prove their false doctrine. They take that verse out of context and make a religion out of it. If we take all of God's word on the subject of who God chooses we will find he choose all not just a few.
John 3:15 �That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. {Whosoever, referrers to all}
John 1:7 �The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Christ said none understand or seek him out and that he came that all might believe.
Romans 3:10 �As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 �There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
God never said none seek him but he is a light to the world, he never once stated to only those he preordained.
John 8:12 �Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
This verse proves it is a matter of will on our part. We either follow him, that is we obey his word about salvation or we stay in darkness. The choice is ours.
I will gone further, those who choose to believe such a doctrine have chosen to walk in darkness.
Let's say you want to race a horse. The first thing you would do is to research the fastest bloodlines. Then you would go shopping for a horse. Let's say you had a dream about a particular horse you were looking at to purchase. You dreamt that it would be a triple stakes winner. So you purchase the horse. Hire a trainer. Enter it in the appropriate races. And it earns a triple crown title just like you dreamt.
You foreknew horse
You purchased the horse
You predestined the horse to be a race horse
You trained the horse
You entered the correct races with the horse
The horse became a champion as you dreamt
The horse was predestined to be a champion
Yet that horse was never deprived of is free will to run or not to run.
Here we are only talking about a horse and a man
Can you imagine the possibilities with God and man?
The only limits are for those who continue to say NO to God.
Those are the ones he has NOT dreamt about.
Well there you have it ; predestination simplified
