Thread: How did The New Testament come to be put together?
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How did The New Testament come to be put together?
Posted : 27 Oct, 2010 07:27 PM
How was The New Testament compiled? Who put it together and what method did they use? Please use only Scripture to back up your argument. I am bringing up this topic because I have been accused on this Forum of being "misled" and "misinformed" and "brain washed" by The Catholic Church and I wanted to give any and all the opportunity to prove that to me. Prove that what I have claimed was not true.
As Christians we are called to be able to defend our Faith...to defend what we Believe. The dark one is working very hard to deceive us. To split us away from The Flock. We need to Know Our Faith. We can not allow Sophistry to seep into Our Faith. We need to investigate everything we hear. To see if it is True.
How did The New Testament come to be put together?
Posted : 28 Oct, 2010 12:10 AM
Very early the New.Testament books were being recognized. Paul for example recognized Luke's writings as scripture (1Tim 5:18). Peter also recognizes Paul's writings as scripture ( 2Peter 3:15-16) New Testament scripture was read by and circulated among the churches (Col 4:16-15, 1Thess 5:27). In 170 AD was the Muratorian Canon which was a compilation of books recognized as canonical at that early date by the church. The Muratorian Canon contained all the New Testament books except for Hebrews, James and one epistle of John.
Then later were the Councils of Laodicea, Hippo, and Carthage from 363 AD to 397 AD which all recognized all 27 books as New Testament scripture.
How did The New Testament come to be put together?
Posted : 28 Oct, 2010 07:19 AM
Two...
That does not show where in Scripture it says that
"these are the books and letters which will go into The New Testament".
It took a source Outside of Scripture to compile those books and letters. A source Allowed and Authorized by GOD Himself (His Church).
The letters and books written by The Apostles had to have been venerated and held as priceless by The early Church. Any copy had to be sought after by all of the Churches and by those of means and influence (historians, the affluent, collectors...).
Yes, Scripture points to letters and books already in circulation at that time such as
II Peter ch 3: 15, 16,
15 Bear in mind that our Lord�s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. �16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand,
which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
(That last part is very INTERESTING...don't you agree?)
this supposes its readers to be acquainted with some of St. Paul's Epistles;
St. John's Gospel implicitly presupposes the existence of the Synoptics (Matthew, Mark, and Luke).
There is no indication in any of The New Testament of The Apostles leaving a Canon to be followed or how these writings were to be distributed. We can logically conclude that
the leading Churches � Antioch � Thessalonica � Alexandria � Corinth � Rome-- exchanged any and all writings with themselves and other Christian Communities and that they were all read at their Masses (services).
It had to have taken quite a few years (perhaps 2 centuries) before all the writings were �gathered� together by this means and were in possession by these Churches and Communities. What eventually happened is that there were over 300 books and letters claiming to have been written by The Apostles. Some of them quite opposed to what Jesus Taught.
As some of the Churches were reading some of these �false� writings and holding them as Revered and Inspired...there ensued a heated debate as to what was and wasn't inspired.
From very early on there were 2 �bodies� of books and letters widely accepted as being �God Inspired�...the Four Gospels, as the Church now has them, and thirteen Epistles of St. Paul. The remaining almost 300 were hotly debated.
As to the Muratorian Canon, it is just one of many proposed by everyone from merchants to Bishops to Popes. The earliest being the one that Marcion (a ship builder) proposed. The Catholic church countered Marcion's Canon with several of their own, Muratorian's being just one of them. The most illuminating is the one drawn up by Eusebius, bishop of Caesarea, in his multi-volume history of the church published in 325 AD.
From 220 to 367 AD (a long time) the question of a Canon and which books and letters should be included was argued and argued.
From 367 to 405 AD The Canon began to be �Fixed� and decided (settled).
The Muratorian Canon (or Fragment as it is also called), composed in the Roman Church in the last quarter of the second century, is silent about Hebrews, James, II Peter and I Peter, (which must have been omitted by an oversight, since it was universally received at the time). Thus it was rejected out of hand.
St. Jerome, a rising light in the Church, though but a simple priest, was summoned by Pope Damasus from the East, where he was pursuing sacred lore, to assist at an
eclectic, but not ecumenical, synod at Rome in the year 382.
Neither the general council at Constantinople of the preceding year nor that of Nice (365) had considered the question of the Canon.
This Roman synod must have devoted itself specially to the matter. The result of its deliberations, presided over, no doubt, by the energetic Pope Damasus himself, has been preserved in the document called
"Decretum Gelasii de recipiendis et non recipiendis libris",
a compilation partly of the sixth century, but containing much material dating from the two preceding ones. The Damasan catalogue presents the complete and perfect Canon which has been that of the Church Universal ever since.
You will not find a Canon in Scripture. Scripture does not say which books or letters should go into The Bible. It was The Catholic Church that compiled The New Testament. Using the �knowledge� given to Her by Christ and the Influence of The Holy Spirit. Only She has The Authority and Power to do so. If it were left up to mankind we would be reading the gospel of judas or who knows what, as inspired reading.
My fellow Christians...God knew what we would do if we were left to our own devices. Exactly what we have done (30,000 different churches). God left us with a Real (physical) Church with Laws and Commandments to follow. God left us all of the Tools (Scripture) and Food (Sacraments) to build us up and a Holy and Apostolic Church to Guide us and Teach us. Can we get to Heaven without Her? Sure...our God is a Personal God; He can do whatever He desires. Being Catholic does not insure Heaven...only your Walk with God does.
My purpose in starting this post was not to point out our differences but to ask please
�do not make comments about The Catholic Church that have no basis in TRUTH�.
Yes, She has made mistakes (men run her and men are capable of errors), but Her Doctrines will Never be Changed � God promised us that (Truth cannot change).
So again...Please do not say false things about Her. I am always Open to discussing my belief. Dialogue is always good and if I make a false statement...please correct me with Truth and Logic...not vague words with any coherence to them.
How did The New Testament come to be put together?
Posted : 28 Oct, 2010 10:07 AM
Dear Steve,
You said : ". . . .please correct me with truth and logic. . . .not with vague words with any coherence to them"
So let us start at the beginning of your post :
You stated : "It took a source outside of scripture to compile those books and letters"
This is a error and here is why :
In approving those books and letters already copiled by the Christian church there was used" tests" of authenticity :
1) Did the author have a connection with a apostle? This was know by the SCRIPTURES.
2) Was the book already accepted as SCRIPTURE at large by the Christian church?
3) Did its contents agree with other orthodox SCRIPTURES and teachings?
4) Did the book have a quality of inspiration as the other SCRIPTURES?
5) Was the book or letter mentioned in other SCRIPTURES?
So hopefully you can see it was a group of Christians who used knowledge, SCRIPTURE and the leading of the Holy Spirit to affirm or not the books and letters already compiled.
How did The New Testament come to be put together?
Posted : 28 Oct, 2010 10:11 AM
So...if the catholic church makes errors, we should follow along with those errors? Are you sure the current catholic church doesn't exist in name only? Maybe the original "catholic" church moved out awhile ago because of the rampant error/abuse/compromise that was assaulting the scriptures? I do not believe the Catholic church that existed when the NT was formed is the same catholic church that is around today, just because if it was the more recent catholic church(500ad-2010) that formed the NT, they would have removed all the stuff that disagrees with them...or at least the stuff that points to the Vatican/Rome as the loose woman of Babylon(A woman/church that sits on seven hills/Rome and commits fornication/compromise with pagans and political powers? Who else can it be?).
:stop:Disclaimer: I believe the Catholic church holds the majority of the true followers of Christ. I don't believe that just because the "organization" is erroneous, that the people are "lost", even though some people in every church are probably not really "christian". God will call all His people back to His truth(whatever that is) and into one fold(whichever "church" that is). It may be the contemporary Catholic church that is reformed and all the believers will come back to it, who knows.:stop:
Anyway, nice trick question!:laugh: I would say that the books in the New Testament are in there because they were the only ones that agreed 100% with the old testament. So I guess that would be my scriptural support. "If they speak not according to this word(the OT), it is because there is no light in them".
How did The New Testament come to be put together?
Posted : 28 Oct, 2010 10:25 AM
Hello Steve;
More to come as promised :
You stated the early church held "!Masses"
This is a error, and here is why;
The was no Roman Catholic church in existence at the time of the early Christian Church. It did not come into existence for over another 200 years when Constantine marched on Italy overthrowing Maxentius in 313AD
Hopefully you can see would be impossible to have "Mass" in the early church. Yes they did gather together , but it wasn't to go to" Mass".
How did The New Testament come to be put together?
Posted : 28 Oct, 2010 10:40 AM
Hello Steve,
More to come as promised :
You stated : "The Muratorian Canon was composed by the Roman Church"
If you are meaning by that the Roman Catholic church then you are in ERROR and here is why;
The Muratorian Canon was compiled before 170AD. The Roman Catholic church could not of" composed " it, because the Roman Catholic church did not exist for another 140+ years.
Hopefully you can see it was the early Christian church at Rome who compiled the Muartorian Canon and not the Roman Catholic church.
How did The New Testament come to be put together?
Posted : 28 Oct, 2010 11:15 AM
Hi Steve
Back as promised;
You stated ;
"Only She [Roman Catholic church] has the Authority and Power . . . . .if it were left up to mankind. . . .if we were left up to our own devices. . . .30,000 different churches. . . God left us with a real (physical ) church"
This is a ERROR and here is why ;
Eph 1:18-23 clearly describes the church as his" body" (Jesus) who he is" head" over.
Dear Steve, the" Real" church is composed of believers from all Christian faiths who have the Spirit of Christ dwelling within them. It is not a physical church, it is a spiritual church. "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." (1Cor 15:50)
Hopefully you can distinguish between the Roman Catholic church and the Christian church.
How did The New Testament come to be put together?
Posted : 28 Oct, 2010 11:25 AM
Dear Steve,
You said : ". . . .please correct me with truth and logic. . . .not with vague words with any coherence to them"
So let us start at the beginning of your post :
You stated : "It took a source outside of scripture to compile those books and letters"
This is a error and here is why :
In approving those books and letters already copiled by the Christian church there was used" tests" of authenticity :
1) Did the author have a connection with a apostle? This was know by the SCRIPTURES.
2) Was the book already accepted as SCRIPTURE at large by the Christian church?
3) Did its contents agree with other orthodox SCRIPTURES and teachings?
4) Did the book have a quality of inspiration as the other SCRIPTURES?
5) Was the book or letter mentioned in other SCRIPTURES?
So hopefully you can see it was a group of Christians who used knowledge, SCRIPTURE and the leading of the Holy Spirit to affirm or not the books and letters already compiled.
Twosparrow,
I agree with you. These were some of the "reasoning" used but my question again is
"Where did The Catholic Church get Her authority to do this?
How did The New Testament come to be put together?
Posted : 28 Oct, 2010 11:31 AM
Don'thit,
My question was not meant to be a "trick question". I just wanted to point out that God gave us Written Revelation (Scripture) and Oral Revelation (that which was given to The Prophets) and spoken to The Apostles by Christ Himself during the forty days He was here on earth before Ascending.
It is this Oral Revelation that combined with Written Revelation makes up The Full Deposit of Faith. It is this that The Catholic Church used to decide which books and letters to include in The Canon of The New Testament.
How did The New Testament come to be put together?
Posted : 28 Oct, 2010 11:41 AM
Hello Steve;
More to come as promised :
You stated the early church held "!Masses"
This is a error, and here is why;
The was no Roman Catholic church in existence at the time of the early Christian Church. It did not come into existence for over another 200 years when Constantine marched on Italy overthrowing Maxentius in 313AD
Hopefully you can see would be impossible to have "Mass" in the early church. Yes they did gather together , but it wasn't to go to" Mass".
Again Two you are mistaking when The Catholic Church became the official religion of The Roman Empire and saying because She was not "called" Roman Catholic that She did not exist. This is either a blatant attempt to mislead or a lame try to misdirect or just plain ignorance.
Whichever it is, what it does is a disservice to anyone that would like to make an informed decision.
You should read what The Early Church wrote about The Mass that as you say "was not happening".
Two...again, I ask "please do your research before you post something as Truth."
