I'm with you Saved, sound like Halfback isn't running his full plays, maybe this is why he is a halfback instead of a fullback:ROFL: no offense halfback... j/j
All who belive in Jesus Christ is NOT Israel. The nation of Israel will be saved and this is not speaking about Gentiles, this is speaking about the Hebrew Jews of Israel, the nation of people of Israel, who will come into the knowledge of Jesus Christ and receive Him into their life as their Savior. They will receive the gospel, and be saved in the kingdom of God with all the rst of us.
Yes, we are all of Israel in a spiritual sense through adoption, and in that we have/do rebelled against God, we are stiffedneck, stubborn and reject God's word just as Israel did and does). But God is speaking about His chosen people (Israel the nation) according to His promise and covenant with Abraham, Issaac, and Jacob, AND according to His word in Roamsn chapter 9-11.
I don't think the Jewish nation of Israel and Israel are the same thing. Israel means "the Prince of God". I believe that those of us who make up the body of believers are the ones who make up Israel. Their are now and will be unsaved Jewish people. Paul said that the one that is circumcised of the heart is a true Jew. That would mean that any believer is a true Jew and I believe the true Jews are Israel. When the Bible says that all Israel will be saved I don't think it is referring to the Jewish nation. I think it is something of a rhetorical statement. Everyone who is Israel is saved therefore all of Israel will be saved. It may be a task to be accomplished and not an event that will occur at a given time. I'm just thinking out-loud here. Any thoughts?
THis post is what I came to believe after studying the Bible for a few years. I grew up with dispensationalism. When I learned that it had only arrived on the scene in the early 1900's I began to question it. I read somewhere that this doctrine originated with eh Jesuits who had the honor of protecting the Catholic Church and its doctrines. They were to come up with a doctrine to refute the teaching of the Protestants that were teaching that the Pope was the Anti-christ. They came up with Dispensationialism and Preterism and began to spread the doctrines in the Protestant churches. I don't know if this is true or not since I only found two sources for this story and it was some time ago. If it is true then we can be sure that these doctrines are of Satan because the are intended to deceive even the elect.
I would ask the same questions of you that I asked the OP...
Are the promises given to Israel as a people and as a Nation in the OT, as well as Romans 11 to bring life from the dead null? God is done with Israel as a Nation and as a people and she has no future?
You are saying "that all Israel will be saved I don't think it is referring to the Jewish nation." If this is so, then who is the Israel in Romans 11:25?
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Paul then goes on to explain..
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
If all Israel is saved is the Church or a group of Believers, you would have to make Israel in verse 25 to read as the Church. You would then be saying that blindness in part is happened to the Church or Believers, until the fulness of the Gentiles come in. It makes no sense to me. And who then is Jacob? When has the Church of Believers ever been referred to as Jacob?
Below are the verses to prove Paul understood God's different plans for mankind.
1 Corinthians 9:17 �For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
Ephesians 1:10 �That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Ephesians 3:2 �If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Colossians 1:25 �Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Generally speaking those who either ignore or blatantly deny the existence of dispensations in God's word is because it proves the falsehood of their doctrines.
1. an act or instance of dispensing; distribution.
2. something that is distributed or given out.
3. a certain order, system, or arrangement; administration or management.
4. Theology .
a. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
b. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by god.
c. a divinely appointed order or age: the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.
5. a dispensing with, doing away with, or doing without something.
6. Roman Catholic Church .
a. a relaxation of law in a particular case granted by a competent superior or the superior's delegate in laws that the superior has the power to make and enforce: a dispensation regarding the Lenten fast.
b. an official document authorizing such a relaxation of law.
ThunderOfGod said "I believe that those of us who make up the body of believers are the ones who make up Israel. Their are now and will be unsaved Jewish people. Paul said that the one that is circumcised of the heart is a true Jew. That would mean that any believer is a true Jew and I believe the true Jews are Israel. When the Bible says that all Israel will be saved I don't think it is referring to the Jewish nation. I think it is something of a rhetorical statement. Everyone who is Israel is saved therefore all of Israel will be saved. It may be a task to be accomplished and not an event that will occur at a given time. I'm just thinking out-loud here. Any thoughts?"
Right.
"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Romans 9: 6-8
"They are not Israel, which are of Israel" means that there are two Israels, that is, the word "Israel" is used for both saved people of all races and for those who are the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Paul then explains in verse 8 that the Israel which is of the flesh, that is, ethnic Israel, the physical seed of Abraham, who are unsaved, are not the children of God.
Romans 11: 26: "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"
To say that all ethnic Israel will be saved would contradict Romans 11: 7 "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded."
And - Romans 11: 20 " Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:" would contradict a statement saying all ethnic Israel will be saved.
A cryptic statement - "and so all Israel shall be saved" - should not be used to justify a major doctrine saying that at some point, maybe during the Tribulation, all Jews will be saved.
Rather, we let the Bible interpret the Bible, and since Paul has already said that ethnic Israel has not attained the election and that most are broken off, we have to interpret Romans 11: 26 to mean that all those who are saved are of Israel.
Another scripture which conflicts with the idea that Romans 11: 26 means all Jews are to be saved sometime in the future is
Matthew 8: 11-12. "And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
The "children of the kingdom" are those of ethnic Israel, most of whom rejected Christ.
Still another text conflicting with the dispensationalist notion that all Jews will be saved is Luke 3: 7-9 "Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8. Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
9. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."
John the Baptist is speaking here and apparently there are Pharisees in the crowd he is talking to. The trees which are to be cut down is ethnic Israel, which does not bear fruit, that is, ethnic Israel as a group did not accept Christ and be transformed into born again Israel in Christ and in the Holy Spirit.
iF YOU UNDERSTAND OR EVEN HAVE A SLIGHT CLUE ABOUT BIBLICAL PROPHECIES, THEN YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT ... Without a doubt the prophecies of Isaiah lets us know that God is speaking about the nation OF Israel and the people (Jews, the seed of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob) being saved in the last days ACCORDING TO THE PROPHET ISAIAH AND ALL THE PROPETS OF OLD....
As for not all of Israel being saved, well, not all the Gentiles will be saved either for that matter, because of the rebellion and rejecting of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and many Christians who say they know the Lord, but live like their father the devil, will not be saved either.
But Isaiah give us clear prophecies and understanidng of what God has promised Israel in His everlasting covenant and promise to her, and upon her repentance, that SHE WILL BE SAVED, AND RECEIVE A DOUBLE BLESSING FROM THE LORD. ISAIAH CHAPTERS 60-61, TELLS US THIS.
Paul's writings in Romans about Israel being saved, is only verification of what Isaiah AND THE OTHER PROPHETS HAVE ALREADY SAID in their prophecies. Paul is bringing it down to earth for our understanding.
Isaiah chapter 45 makes it very clear about the everlasting salvation of Israel, and her future resotation and coming to Christ. Israel rejected Christ, but God has not rejected Israel and God promised He would rstore her and Israel will accept Jesus Christ. Isaiah chapter 35-66 let us know this.
For it is written: In the Lord shall ALL (this does not say SOME, BUT ALL) THE SEED OF ISRAEL shall BE JUSTOFIED, AND SHALL GLORY. ISAIAH CHPATER 45....
God's offer of salvation is to everyone who will accept the free offer, and come drink and eat at His table, to the Jews first it was offered, then the Gentiles. Some of the Jews rejected, while some of the Gentiles received. Some Gentiles rejected, and some Jews received, in the 2st century, just as in the 21st century.
So...your genes can save you?:laugh: I think thunder nailed this one. Just because you live in Israel and have Jewish genes doesn't mean you're going to be saved. This sounds like a mix of a lot of bad theology to me...
