Mark and John got a little long-winded/off-topic(Mark's fault) on a previous thread(see link). Mark started attacking John's religion, and John replied in defense.
-------John's Reply------
"I�ll tell you what�s going on.
The Catholic Church owns a lot of art, and a lot of property. And you seem to be implying that those possessions could be sold and used to better serve the poor. Thankfully, you don�t know what you�re talking about, otherwise, the poor would end up getting less help than they�re currently getting. How so?
With respect to the art, a few points are worth mentioning. First, the Vatican charges people to view tour its art galleries. That means the church � the largest charitable organization in the world � gets ongoing revenue from its art collection. Sell the art, lose a large source of yearly income that is going to help the poor. Second, the art collections are largely public. Sell the art, and a huge portion of it goes into private collections, never to be seen or enjoyed by the public again.
Let�s actually take your proposition seriously for a second. Let�s say the Vatican sells 10 billion dollars in art, with the intent of taking that money and using it to serve the poor. Immediately, the high demand for medical supplies and food causes the prices to go through the roof (supply and demand). The result is that the Catholic Church ends up being able to buy less with its one-time surge in revenue. True, the poor might see a modicum of relief in the short-term, but they are going to suffer more in the long-term, once things settle down and the Church no longer has revenue from its art galleries. Do you see how utterly stupid your proposal is? It�s beyond ludicrous.
Now, with respect to property, yes, the Church owns land. What�s on that land though? Churches! Why on earth would the Church sell it�s land? So it can cease existing? Where would the parishioners celebrate the liturgy?
I don�t mind having these kinds of discussions, but we should probably start a separate thread for them, as this is getting way off topic.
By the way, if you want to do a more public debate I�d be happy to discuss the errors of Adventism on another thread. Just let me know.
John."
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Ok...I don't think I need to argue the point about Catholics and money though. What did Jesus tell the rich young ruler to do? I can see the point about wisely managing money, and I can see the point about the art and things that bring in revenue. Contrary to your opinion, my argument is not quite that stupid. I would like to point out though, that 10 million in art is a lot less valuable than investing that 10 million elsewhere. I wasn't thinking about art or land when I made the point about the riches of the catholic church. Adventists own land and companies and publishing houses, there are things that are necessary or helpful to spread the gospel. I was pointing more toward the utensils and extravagance that goes toward the use/portrayal/construction of the various catholic "stuff". I'll admit that most of it was probably acquired before the current era, when Catholics weren't so nice. And I'll admit that every church organization has waste and unnecessary projects. Nothing in this world is perfect, and maybe it's the scale of the catholic denomination that looks so massive to us comparative "Jesus hicks"...but it just seems to me that they could find better things to do with their money.
So how do you want to do this? Move on to another topic or stick with this one? I guess we can moderate ourselves to a degree.
A debate on the dontrinal differences and conduct of Adventists/Catholics
Posted : 28 Jun, 2010 04:23 PM
"I was pointing more toward the utensils and extravagance that goes toward the use/portrayal/construction of the various catholic "stuff". I'll admit that most of it was probably acquired before the current era, when Catholics weren't so nice."
Heaven forbid we Catholics should spend money on nice, and necessary, liturgical implements. I mean, it's not like God's ever commanded his people to, oh, I don't know, build boxes overlaid with gold, fashion harnesses from precious stones, or worse, make tunics of fine linen. That's sarcasm by the way. See all of Exodus 22.
Why don't we do the debate in a formal sort of way? Two opening statements of 500 words or less, followed by two rounds of rejoinders of 400 words or less, and then a conclusion of 300 words or less. So, we'd have an opening statement, followed by a rejoinder, followed by another rejoinder, and then a conclusion.
You can go first if you'd like.
The debate can be titled, "Peter or Miller: Is Roman Catholicism, or Adventism the True Church Founded by Christ?"
I may not be able to respond immediately, as I have a job interview Wednesday, and I'm going out of town (another reason you can go first). But I'll definitely be back.
A debate on the dontrinal differences and conduct of Adventists/Catholics
Posted : 28 Jun, 2010 05:58 PM
That's John! :rocknroll: He enjoys polemics, art galleries, environmentalism, and long backpacks on the beach. He likes coffee, but not contraceptives!? What hypocrisy!! Heretic!!
A debate on the dontrinal differences and conduct of Adventists/Catholics
Posted : 28 Jun, 2010 06:30 PM
Well, I'm definitely no formal "debater". Never been to seminary, or college, never been to high school, never been to middle school...never been to kindergarten...never been to preschool....so as far as formal training, I'm below a novice. If you start with the rules/forms/conduct, then I'll be completely lost:dunce:. I'd rather just take turns talking about it unless you want to give me some formal debate training, lol.
*whispers*I don't know what a rejointguer is...but you shouldn't call people bad names...that's very unchristian...*end of whisper*
Point already though. Miller was not a Seventh-day Adventist. Wasn't even close. He was just interpreting prophecy...badly actually. As far as doctrine goes, William Miller had no direct input on SDA doctrinal foundations. Just being clear. I am a Seventh-day Adventist, and while people like to read what the internet/critics have to say, very little, if any, of it is completely accurate. I've looked. Very humbly. Some is, some isn't, and some is so mixed together it's almost laughable. Maybe we should make a concession to listen to each others explanation of their beliefs, instead of letting the non-Catholics and the non-Adventists do it. You've already said something about how ignorant I am of your beliefs. Lets just agree that since I'm not a Catholic and you're not an Adventist, we are not qualified to tell each other what the other believes. Fair? We can tell each other what we believe, and then proceed to tear each other down with complete and utter word war. Let's just try to make it the bible's words or our own words, and not a bunch of really long drawn out articles that we pasted from the internet or some strange computer database of saved documents. No offense, Manny!
A debate on the dontrinal differences and conduct of Adventists/Catholics
Posted : 28 Jun, 2010 10:20 PM
OH, okay... Hi there John!:waving: Welcome to the war-room.:applause:... where everybody THINKS they are right and have ALL KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING, AND WISDOM IN THE WORDS of Dead THEOLOGIANS, AND NOTHING SPIRITUALLY IN THE THINGS OF GOD. :ROFL::excited:
Pay Mark no attention, he's a cut-up:dancingp::peace::peace::yay:
A debate on the dontrinal differences and conduct of Adventists/Catholics
Posted : 28 Jun, 2010 10:28 PM
No Christian Church is older than The Catholic Church...no church.
Being 2000 years old you will tend to �accumulate� things. Many of these �things� are Icons and Relics that are priceless and irreplaceable. Most of the Art is donated or �on loan� from private families. The Catholic Church does more good and helps more needy people than Any Single Christian today! With thousands of Churches and a Billion members, She is able to feed and clothe and help countless.
I would suggest that if your church was as Old as The Catholic Church you would also have many Beautiful and Priceless Artifacts. It would be absurd to ask you to �get rid of them� because you �seem� too wealthy.
I cannot recite Scripture as my Protestant Friends can but, I do remember reading where a woman poured out her Expensive Perfumed Oil on Jesus' Feet. I believe that the Oil was worth a year's wages. Jesus rebuked Judas for chastising her for doing so. Judas said that the Oil could have been sold and used to feed the hungry (or something like that).
The Church is Christ's Bride! Do we shame Him by Adorning His Bride?
I have to defend my faith weekly, from Good Christians who read Scripture and try to Interpret it as best they can. They find others that �believe� as they do and either start a church or they join that church.
For 1500 years there was only The Catholic Church. Everything I believe now has been True from the beginning...when Christ Established His Church with Peter as His Vicar. Nothing has been changed or added. Doctrine has been defined when needed, but no New Doctrine has been added.
Yes, She has made mistakes...some terrible ones and yes She needed to be Reformed � but The Whole Deposit of Faith that Christ left with Peter and The Apostles is still here with His Church.
I would Love to answer any and all questions. I will try to find Scripture to back what I say and what The Church Teaches. It is good practice and hopefully will do some good.
I have to finish with this...Just because one is Catholic dose not gaurantee going to Heaven. Many Catholics will be very surprised at their death and just because you are Not Catholic means that you are going to hell. I have many Protestant Brothers and Sisters that are definitely going to Heaven.
A debate on the dontrinal differences and conduct of Adventists/Catholics
Posted : 28 Jun, 2010 10:29 PM
rejoinder... Mark , I think all John is saying is, that you connect with him in your discussion giving your response or answerto what he has said, giving your side(views) of his comments. I think that's what you are saying, isn't it John?:dunce::goofball:
A debate on the dontrinal differences and conduct of Adventists/Catholics
Posted : 28 Jun, 2010 10:54 PM
I was just kidding with the rejoinder thing :goofball::goofball:
And Arch...what would Jesus want? Some pretty utensils or to feed the poor/cloth the poor/visit the prisoners....I know Catholics already do that...but...I don't know...to whom much is given, much is expected. I guess that's the simplest way to explain how I feel about it.
