Author Thread: Calvinism, The Five Points and Predestination
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Calvinism, The Five Points and Predestination
Posted : 25 Jun, 2010 08:53 AM

Whilst there is more to Calvinism than five points, these are the major points on which Calvinism rests. They are called the T-U-L-I-P. Point 1, Total Depravity; Point 2, Unconditional Election; Point 3, Limited Attonement; Point 4, Irresistable Grace; and Point 5, Perseverence of the Saints.



Point 1, Total Depravity. Simply put, this doctrine says that all mankind, since the fall, has been totally depraved. That man, both individually and generally, is totally debased and corrupt, that he is unable to think or do anything good outside of God's Providence.



Now what is my problem with this? It's the word, "total." Certainly the Bible teaches the depravity of man, but I don't see the total aspect of it. You see the scripture is generalized when it speaks of the wickedness of man. For example, Genesis 6.5 says, "Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." That sounds kinda bad. But it is still a general statement regarding the moral condition of mankind. Obviously, it wasn't individual. Because in verse 8 we are told that Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Was Noah totally depraved? Nowhere does the text indicate that. Of course the Calvinist would say that God gave grace to Noah. But that is unsupported by the text as well. The idea that Noah obeyed God suggests there was some good in him. Or maybe Noah wasn't included in God's assessment in verse 5. And, if Noah wasn't included in verse 5, then that shows the generallity of the statement. No matter how you try to explain it, Noah was different.



We can look at mankind today, with all the murders, the wars, the rapes, the threats from one government to another suggesting that annhilation is right around the corner, and conclude that man is depraved, eventhough there are some righteous people on the earth, of which can be said God found grace in His eyes.



I once knew an atheist, and he was till he died. Yet, this man was the one of the most giving man I ever knew. I use to visit his used bookstore, and one day I told him I was thirsty, and asked if I could have a glass of water. Without hesitation, he brought me a glass of water. I remember, one time someone was looking at a book, and it was marked $.50. They only had a quarter. He sold them that book for a quarter. He use to donate books to various charities when they had book drives, which they in turn sold with the proceeds going to that charity. Yet, by Calvinistic definition, he was totally depraved. Of course, they would probably say that eventhough he was totally depraved, he filled some purpose in God's Providence.



The problem I have with the Calvinistic doctrine of total depravity is that it can neither be proved or disproved. Certainly, in general the scriptures do teach the depravity of man, but not individually. But then again, there is God's providence. I know there was a time I was financially in very bad shape. A man took pity on me and helped me. Later, he was charge with some kind of financial crime, whether embezzelment, or something like that. He had two businesses, and he stole money from one business to keep the other going. He didn't pay taxes, nor social security for any of his employees. He took the money off their checks, but somehow, it never got to the IRS. Later, of course, the IRS came after the employees for their money as we are responsible to pay our taxes, even though there is no law that says so.



Oh yes, I could go on and point out indications that man is depraved, but that even a depraved man can do something good.



Decide for yourself. Is man totally depraved? I personally don't think so.



Point 2, Unconditional Election. Several years ago, I did a study on the words elect, chose, chosen, as they pertain to this doctrine. What I found is that those words pertain to Christ, to the apostles, and to the church. Never to anyone individually, except Christ.



The fact is we are chosen in Christ, and we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:4 states, "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love." This verse makes it plain, those whom are chosen are chosen in Him, in Christ. Outside of Christ, no one is chosen. Therefore, we must then understand how someone is chosen in Christ, and that is where the conditions come in. Salvation is the process by which we are chosen in Christ.



Condition #1, believing. John 3.16, a familiar passage to most. But let's go a bit further and include verses 17 and 18. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through might be saved. He that believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name in the only begotten Son of God." There can be no doubt that according to these verses, believing is very definitely a condition for salvation. And you cannot be elect without being saved, and being in Christ.



Condition #2, repentance. Luke 13.3 & 5 say the same thing. "I tell you no, but unless you repent you will all likewise perish." Wel that's pretty well straight forward. No repentance, no salvation, you will perish.



Condition #3, confession. Romans 10:9 states. "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Confess with your mouth, and believe in your heart brings salvation. That's simple enough.



Some folks add water baptism as a condition of salvation. One thing for certain, salvation is not unconditional. And since salvation is of itself a condition of election, it's safe to say election is not unconditional.





Point 3, Limited Attonement. This is my favorite. Why? Because, it's the easiest to refute. Let me tell you, the five points are like dominoes. When one falls, they all do.



Keep in mind, these five points of Calvinism are all connected to their doctrine of particular election, and their doctrine of particular redemption. Without these five points, those two doctrines are gone. It's like, you tell a big lie. Then you have to create a bunch of little lies to support the big lie. And in this point of limited atomement, the lie is exposed.



Limited atonement is just that. Before the foundation of the world God the Father predetermined to send Christ in to the world at just the right time to become a sacrifice for the sins of a select few, called the elect.



Now the truth. In John 12.32, Jesus said, "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL to Myself." Notice the word "ALL." This is my own translation. In the KJV, they add the word men in italics. If you have read the preface of the KJV, you know that words in italics are added words to clarify the text. Take the word out, and you have what the original states. You have the same in the NKJV. Without the added words, you might ask all what. But with the added words, you don't need to. In answer to the question, "All what?" Without the extra word we simply have to look at the text. What was Jesus talking about? So let's look at the text. John 12. 30-32. "Jesus answered and said, 'This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all world to Myself.'" You can see, I added the word world in italics. In the the text, Jesus is talking about the judgement of the world (kosmos). Then he refers to the manner in which He would die. If you're going to add a word, it should be a word in keeping with the text. So the message of Jesus here is, "If I be crucified, I will draw all the world to Myself." That sure doesn't sound like limited atonement to me. I realize there are some Calvinistic Greek scholars that would disagree with this definition. But the Greek word, pantos does not support the idea of any kind of limitation. According to the Greek books that I have, the word means, wholly, entirety, every.



Then there is I John 2.2, "And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." Again, the Greek word, holos, translated "whole" shows absolutlely no limitation. I Timothy 4.3-6 teaches that God "desires all men to be saved," and that Jesus "gave Himself a ransom for all." That doesn't sound like only a select few. I believe it is safe to say that in no way does scripture teach limited atonement.



Point 4, Irresistable Grace. Since Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, with irresistable grace, everyone should be saved, since it is impossible to resist the grace of God. But, Galatians 5.4 states, "You have become eastranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by the law; you have fallen from grace." Fallen from irresistable grace! How can that be? Those trying to be justified by the law are also estranged from Christ. Doesn't sound like irresistable grace to me. And, that leads to the next point.



Point 5, Perseverance of the Saints. This suggests that all saints, through God's unconditional love and irresistable grace, that all saints will be equipped to always persevere. If so, then why does scripture warn about an apostasy? You can't fall from something unless you are in it. In II Thessalonians 2, Paul wrote about the coming of the Lord, and wrote, "that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first..." Then there is the pronouncment by Paul that those who try to be justified by the Law, "you have fallen from grace." Saints falling from grace. This shows two things. God's grace is not irresistable even among the saints, and therefore, having fallen from grace, they are not able to pesevere.



There you have it. A discussion on the five points which are a part of a system of theology known as Calvinism.



PREDESTINATION



Certainly scripture teaches predestination. Where Calvinism and scripture part ways is what God's predestination is based on. Calvinism teaches that God loved his elect before the foundation of the world, and saved only those few. But that is not what scripture teaches.



For the truth we go to Romans 8.29 & 30, which states, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined. these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."



Romans 8.29 plainly teaches that God's predestination is based on His foreknowledge. What does this word, "foreknew," mean? It is translated from the Greek, proginosko, which means, according to Vine, "to know before." It does not mean, "to love before," as Calvinists teach. If it did, the word would have to be, proagape, but as you can see, it's not.



Vine explains, "God's foreknowledge involves His electing grace, but does not preclude human will. He foreknows the exercise of faith which brings salvation."



Ephesians 1.5 & 11 further teaches that He "predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." "And it is in Christ, "in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will."



So the doctrine of predestination properly is; according to the foreknowledge of God we are predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son, Jesus. Through predestination in Christ, we are called, we are justified, we are glorified, we are adopted as sons by Jesus Christ, through whom we obtain an inheritance, according to the pupose, good pleasure, and counsel of God's will.



A part of God's omniscience is His foreknowledge. God foreknows all things. Calvinism teaches that God foreknows all things because He has preplanned all things. However, I see no support for this in scripture.

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klmartin62

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Calvinism, The Five Points and Predestination
Posted : 25 Jun, 2010 12:58 PM

I agree Calvinism falls short in many areas, but it is so much better than the other popular theology.



I. The Good News of Once Saved, Hardly Saved (Arminianism)



Christ bought us all back from satan and sin by His blood shed on Calvary. However, Christ will NEVER get all He paid for because:



a. God�s commitment to redeem us depends on the strength and steadfastness of our commitment to follow Christ in consistent obedience. For faith without works is dead.



b. Our heavenly Father "desires" all to be saved. Yet He also has known from eternity past that His desire is only futile sentimentality, because it will not ever be fulfilled. For narrow is the way that leads to life and few (ever will) find it.



c. God�s will being accomplished depends on the faithfulness of our human (sin-weakened) wills to help Him succeed in saving us.



d. In theory Christ is the Savior of all men, and yet many people will be eternally damned. So as it turns out, Christ is actually the Savior of those whom He will never save! And worse, those whom He knows He will never save.



We can easily find fault with almost any theology, especially doing it as we have both demonstrated here, by having an agenda.



I don't believe either one, but parts of both. However, I think Arminianism is the worst of the two because it puts man above God.



Blessings,

Leon

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Calvinism, The Five Points and Predestination
Posted : 25 Jun, 2010 03:56 PM

I believe the doctrine you are referring to is "one saved, always saved." That doctrine is made even stronger by Calvinism. It's called "perseverence of the saints." It is predicated upon the teaching that God is able to keep His own. Once in Christ, through the grace of God, no one can snatch you out of His hands. While that is true, one can certainly walk away from grace by trying to be redeemed by the Mosaic Law. Paul said they "have fallen from grace." I pointed that out in the OP. There is no way that grace is irresistable if once a partaker of grace to be fallen away from grace.



As long as you are faithful to Christ, nothing can separate you from God's grace.



God Bless,



Tom

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DontHitThatMark

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Calvinism, The Five Points and Predestination
Posted : 25 Jun, 2010 08:46 PM

Very good. Brace yourself though:laugh:, there's a lot of people on here that hold to those points very closely. Personally, I can't believe in any of those five points...they all, on some level, contradict the character of God...or at least the character of God that I see in the bible. The one shown through Jesus. All the points about God forcing His will are too conflicting with the selflessness of Christ, and we know God through Christ. God has the same selfless character as Jesus, and I do not believe He would force someone to be recreated and to love Him...and if He did, He would not be Christ-like. And besides...if He forced some to be renewed...why not others? It's turns God even further from His true character. God is powerful enough that He doesn't need to supplant the free moral will He created us with to do His own will.



:peace::peace:

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Calvinism, The Five Points and Predestination
Posted : 25 Jun, 2010 10:03 PM

Thanks, Don'tHitThatMark.



But, I do know what kind of reception to receive from the Calvinists in here. I seen the controversy as I read through some of the threads. I thought that maybe another point of view might help. That's why I posted this here. Believe it or not, I was a Calvinist at one time. Then, a pastor came to me and said that you have to be a Calvinist to be a Christian. That really stunned me, and I re-evaluated my belief. I have done much study into Calvinism. Even went to a local Seminary and read some of his institutes. I became convinced that the system of theology known as Calvinism and what John Calvin actually taught were 2 different things, at least in some places. For example, modern Calvinism teaches that God causes evil. That, for example, God caused the tragedy at Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania, where a man killed 5 or 6 young Amish girls. But there is nothing that God revealed about himself that comes close to suggesting that God causes wickedness and sin.



Modern Calvinism is so close to Universalism, that there is only one difference. Universalism says that ALL will be saved, where modern Calvinists still hold to the position that God will only save the select few that He predestined before the foundation of the world. Beyond that, I don't see much of a difference between the two. But, John Calvin never taught that God was in so much control that He causes all things to happen, right down to the toothpaste you buy.



Sorry, when I write about Calvinism, I can't seem to stop. But, I thought I should explain where I was coming from. The fact is, the teachings of John Calvin, and modern Calvinism are two different things. Besides what I already stated, John Calvin never taught infant baptism, yet many Calvinists practice infant-baptism. If you don't believe me, go to Calvin's institutes and read what he said about baptism. He taught adult immersion.



Thanks again for the warning. I am ready for them.



:boxing:

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Posted : 25 Jun, 2010 10:31 PM

Well I am one of those"crazy" folks that beleive in the doctrines of grace,but Ive grown weary of the debate,my beleifs are solid,and I think God for them every day.





Here are my reasons



1.I know im a wretched sinner,who would not have come to God if my nature had not been supernaturally changed.



2.I know that if left to my own,i would fall away,run away,worship myself,or the world,or whatever gratifies my selfish desires.



3.I know I am no better than my neighbor,just chosen by grace,because God is God and has mercy on whom he chooses.



4.I think any theology that gives man any of the glory is flawed at its core.



No,I dont think people who hold arminian veiws are unsaved,and no god never does evil.I think your refering toi hypercalvinism,I dont go for that.



I just beleive man is too evil to desire the things of god without him being changed first,also,I beleive it is the creator right to do with his creation,what he desires,especially if that creator is perfect.



But like i said,you are welcome to your beleifs and i will call you brother.



but dont deny me mine.



In Christ



Steve

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klmartin62

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Calvinism, The Five Points and Predestination
Posted : 25 Jun, 2010 10:35 PM

I do believe in once saved always saved, but only because when God does something , man can not undo it.



As for predestination, only when it is part of God's plan. Like Saul was predestined to become Paul, etc.



I used to believe as y'all did here, I even went to bible college and was taught that doctrine, but I couldn't get it to reconcile with the other scriptures without twisting them. That makes it untrue. So, I started studying the scriptures and God revealed the truth to me. I didn't want to believe it. It went against everything I had been taught. I finally decided I was going to believe the bible alone. It was amazing how many traditions we are taught instead of the bible.



God bless,

Leon

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Calvinism, The Five Points and Predestination
Posted : 25 Jun, 2010 11:10 PM

Now we know the spirit of truth did not lead anyone into teaching not in agreement with the word.

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Posted : 26 Jun, 2010 05:57 AM

manofGod42 wrote:



Well I am one of those"crazy" folks that beleive in the doctrines of grace,but Ive grown weary of the debate,my beleifs are solid,and I think God for them every day.



Sam: I wouldn't say you are crazy, just misinformed.



Here are my reasons



1.I know im a wretched sinner,who would not have come to God if my nature had not been supernaturally changed.



Sam: There is a difference between being a wretched sinner and being totally depraved. Totally depravity means that you can never do anything good, ever, without God giving you that ability. But, I know people who do not have God in their lives that do good things. I also know "Christians" that do evil things.



2.I know that if left to my own,i would fall away,run away,worship myself,or the world,or whatever gratifies my selfish desires.



Sam: What do you do with the Scripture that says, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"?



3.I know I am no better than my neighbor,just chosen by grace,because God is God and has mercy on whom he chooses.



Sam: And whom does God have mercy on?



4.I think any theology that gives man any of the glory is flawed at its core.



Sam: Of this we agree. But, do you think any theology other than Calvinism gives man the glory?



No,I dont think people who hold arminian veiws are unsaved,and no god never does evil.I think your refering toi hypercalvinism,I dont go for that.



Sam: I know Calvinists that do believe and teach that.



I just beleive man is too evil to desire the things of god without him being changed first,also,I beleive it is the creator right to do with his creation,what he desires,especially if that creator is perfect.



Sam: Really? Do you know anyone that does not desire to go to Heaven?



But like i said,you are welcome to your beleifs and i will call you brother.



but dont deny me mine.



Sam: I don't know that I denied you anything. You may believe anything you want. That just goes to show that are free to choose whatever you want to believe, just as I am.



:winksmile:

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Calvinism, The Five Points and Predestination
Posted : 26 Jun, 2010 06:01 AM

PhllipJohn said:

"Now we know the spirit of truth did not lead anyone into teaching not in agreement with the word."



If I may ask, Phil, what are you referring to? Are you referring to the OP?

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Posted : 26 Jun, 2010 07:52 AM

In referinng to Leon's statement, I know Calvinism is wrong, and wrong on every point.

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