I know its a lot of reading,but read this passage for me and then tell me what you think please.
�AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.� 10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God�s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, �THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.� 13 Just as it is written, �JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.�
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, �I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.� 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, �FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.� 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, �Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?� 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, �Why did you make me like this,� will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
Perfect passage of scripture to prove that man DOES NOT have free will over himself or anything according to what God has to say, and to prove God's soverignty Romans chapter 9. proves that God is His own self's boss, and there is nothing man can do AFTER God has spoken wich ever way He desires things to go.
As verse 21 says, The potter has power over the clay, (God has power over man) He made us and He can destory us if He pleases when He pleases, how he pleases, where He please, and there ain't nothing man can do.
Ask Jonah as well about trying to be a Burgerking, having things his way!:ROFL::dancingp:
Many people deny the doctrines of grace,especially the free and undeserved election of beleivers,but it is irrefutable.They imagine that god makes distinctions according to merit;from foreknowledge he gives the adoption of sons to the worthy and condemns those who are bent on evil.this veiw obscures the doctrine of election and gives it a different origin.It has had a lot of support in every generation.But the truth of god is too clear and sure to be shaken by citing human authorities.some people,ignorant of scripture,attack sound doctrine with intolerable anger and falsehoods.Because god chooses some,and rejects others,they argue with him.But since the facts are true,then what is the point of arguing with god?God has always been free to shower his grace on whomever he wants to.Men might as well question why they are superior to cats and dogs!Only god knows the reasons.He could have made us dogs or worms or.....ect.Do they think the lower animals protest to god about making them a worm,or a snail?Just as men enjoy privlige without merit,so god also distributes favor according to his wishes...When paul states that we were chosen in christ before the foundation of the world(eph. 1;4)
He makes it clear that there is no regard for our own worth.We were adopted into our heavenly inheretance in christ because in ourselves we were incapable of attaining it!
elsewhere he exhorts the collossians to give thanks that they had been made fit to share in the inheretance of the saints(col.1;12) If election precedes the divine grace,wich makes us fit for immortal life,what does god see in us to persuade him to elect us?Another passage makes this even clearer.god "chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ,In accordance with his pleasure and will"(Ephesians 1;4-5)Here gods pleasure is put in contrast to any possible worth in us.
I dont know how anyone can get any other possible meaning out of these phrases wich by the way,the bible is chocked full of!The truth is.........YOU CANT!!!!!!NOT POSSIBLE!
For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
You forget to post the other side of Mercy, it is not hard to manipulate the word of God.
If it is as you proclaim there is no Gospel but of those that believe we know the truth of the Gospel, it is to whosoever will, and the mercy of God is to all that call upon his name.
No guilt in life, no fear of death...This is the POWER OF CHRIST in me....From Life's first cry to final breath....JESUS commands my DESTINY...
Ex 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
De 4:31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.
De 32:43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.
2Ch 30:9 For if ye turn again unto the LORD, your brethren and your children shall find compassion before them that lead them captive, so that they shall come again into this land: for the LORD your God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn away his face from you, if ye return unto him.
Ne 9:17 And refused to obey, neither were mindful of thy wonders that thou didst among them; but hardened their necks, and in their rebellion appointed a captain to return to their bondage: but thou art a God ready to pardon, gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and forsookest them not.
Ne 9:31 Nevertheless for thy great mercies� sake thou didst not utterly consume them, nor forsake them; for thou art a gracious and merciful God.
Ps 103:8 The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.
Ps 116:5 Gracious is the LORD, and righteous; yea, our God is merciful.
Jer 3:12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.
Joe 2:13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
Lu 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Great posts MOG and Ella. To deny that is to deny the word of God.
There are so many examples of God stepping in to change the will of people that it amazes me anyone would say it wasn't true. Anyone can twist verses. If you want to know what the bible says, look to the examples it gives us. Was it Adam's will to leave the garden? What about Ballaam when he wanted to curse Israel but blessed them instead. What about the 400 prophets of King Ahab that God sent an angel to be a lying spirit in their mouths? Or Saul on the road to Damascus? Do you think the man that tied the donkey to the post had nothing else to do?
We may not know it, but God is sovereign and in control.
But did God take away Adams will to force him out of the garden? Did he take away Balaam's choice to get on the donkey? Anyway...it's a mix in my opinion...if you take away man's will completely you take away the God of the bible and turn Him into a egotistical puppeteer that killed His son for no reason. He could have "erased" sin at Satan, but instead He chose to create a race of beings just to torture them for their short lives? And not only that...but He also chose....FOR ETERNITY(that's a long long never-ending time...I don't believe that either though:laugh:)...to torture the ones that HE chose not to choose Him??? lol...I think you guys must be reading a different bible or something, because that's pretty bad. No wonder it's hard to convince people to love God.
God has always been in complete control...why would He need take away our free will and make our love worthless? He's more powerful than that...give Him some credit. Which is more powerful? A god that can press a button and make you saved, or one that can play chess with every choice you will ever make to bring His will/plan for the good of the universe to the supreme...before time even existed? The first option makes God tyrant, torturing His created beings that He didn't press the button for. The second option makes me love a merciful genius God.
