i cant speak for individuals but........It seems like their philosophy is faith plus works equals salvation
Unregenerate men can no more obey the gospel than the law, without Christ granting renewal of heart. The saving power of Jesus Christ is not dependant on faith or works being added to what He has done; The saving power of the cross is such that faith and obedience springs from it.
Faith itself is man's act or work and is thereby excluded from being any part of his justifying righteousness. It is one thing to be justified by grace through faith merely as an instrument by which man receives the righteousness of Christ, and another to be justified FOR faith as an act or work of the law. If a sinner, then, relies on his actings of faith or works of obedience to any of the commands of the law for a title to eternal life, he seeks to be justified by works of the law as much as if his works were perfect.
Paul then on Phil chapter 3:3 gives a definition of a true Christian:
"....we are the [true] circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh."
He calls true Christians �the real circumcision�, i.e. the true covenant people of God. There are three characteristics Paul gives of Christians found in verse 3. He says they are those who:
1) Worship in the Spirit of God
2) Glory in Christ
3) And put no confidence in the flesh
In other words, to be a true Christians means to have utterly despaired of all hope in oneself. When the Holy Spirit does a work of grace in someone, He convicts them of their sin. Not just sins, but convicts of the fact that they are sinners by nature and can do nothing to save themselves. This means one who is brought to faith, repents of both their good works and their evil works. Both are equally worthless to God. False teaching, like Romans Catholicism, glories in something other than in Christ alone, always pointing to something that we can do; a resum� we can bring before God to curry His favor.
So again to answer your question. It is the faith and works of Christ that saves us, not our faith or works of obedience, neither of which will ever even come close to pleasing God in any redemptive way. In the covenant in Christ's blood ALONE he remembers not to treat us as our sins justly deserve.
I don't really feel competent to discuss the whole of RC Church teachings and doctrine, but as a former RC I can tell you what is the subject of beliefs:
Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity, who became a man, died and rose again, bringing salvation to all.
I think the most important things for RCs would be:
1) RCs believe that the Lord left to his people a legacy of sacraments: his blood and body, which consumed by the believers, make the everlasting life in heaven start here on earth. People who don't eat his eucharistic body/drink his blood don't have his live in them (John 6:48-51, Luke 22:19-20). Jesus's body can be received in eucharist - a sacrifice equal to the one at the cross when the Lord gave his body. The eucharist is celebrated by all the believers led by priests (the latter are like the apostles - chosen by Christ to serve him and teach His people). More or less :) Oh and the pope - that's the function that passes ever since Jesus said to Peter that he's the rock on which the church will be built (Matt 16: 18-19) and also 'take care of my sheep' (John 21: 15-17). The pope is the person responsible for the church and the way the scripture is being interpreted (like Paul explained the scripture and the essence of being the follower of Christ to believers through his letters)
2) RCs believe that we have to repent for our sins (as they displease God, even though they have been forgiven). That's why one needs to confess their sin and try to turn away from it (the attitude of the tax collector in Luke 18:13 or the prodigial son in Luke 15:21)
3) RCs believe that despite being a sinner one can (and should) seek God's favour through their good works (Mark 12:42-44, Matt 25: 14-30,, Matt 25: 31-46 ...) as the faith without deeds is null (Jas 2: 14-19)
Unfortunately, RCs don't put enough emphasis on reading and living the Word of God.
I guess in 2000years the RC church has developed too many rituals and traditions which distract her members from the very essence of christianity - putting trust into the Lord and worshipping Him.
And (without judging anyone) I think there's quite a lot of people who simply were brought up christians (catholics) and they 'practise their religion' instead of 'live their faith'. Maybe the reason for that is Latin, which has used in the RC church for centuries till late 1960 (Vatican Council 2). Sadly, people couldn't develop a personal bond with God as they couldn't understand what God in His word and the preacher was saying to them...
I'm sorry my post is so long :)
And excuse my English if I made some mistakes - can happen as it's not my native language :)
To sum up: I would definitely call Roman Catholicism a part of Christ's body. The question is whether all its members are believers (or saved christians). But I guess one could ask some of the so called reformed christians the same question...
Like all churches some are saved that attend these churches.Those who follow christ as the one who died for their sins.I had family members who were catholic that were saved and some who were and currently not saved. Family war going on for 3 generations. Some seek to cause you trouble if you are not catholic. They got even with those who left the catholic church at my grandmothers funeral.So, I am very careful when I deal with catholics. I keep my self very guarded. I am also very careful as to what I say. My one uncle who was catholic and saved always did me good. The others did not treat me well.I was never catholic but my Dad was.
:peace: Yes, when I got saved I got what I call hate mail. It was mailed to me. I have a issue with that. Dennis
Dennis I think you hit the nail on the head - it's all about not trusting the 'stranger'
Your Catholic family members think only they can be saved as protestants are not real followers of Christ as they emerged only in 15th or 16th century by rejecting what there had been from the very beginning.
On the other hand most of the protestants here would probably say only reformed christians are true disciples, and they doubt if catholics/eastern orthodox christians can enter the kingdom... That's why this thread ever started I guess :)
Shame that God's children are so divided as to disrespect one another. This is not exactly what the Lord meant saying we're his one body...
Well it is gods call not mine.He will decide.We are not to imply that we know.Just follow jesus and take care of ourselves. It is the other persons choice to accept christ.Dennis
Thank you for your replies have you ever read the council of Trent this has never been altered or denied by the Catholic Church, quote: "If anyone says that the faith which justifies is nothing else but trust in the divine mercy which hardens sins because of Christ, or that it is trust alone by which we are justified," which is what every evangelical Christian would say, and they end with, "let him be anathema." Which means, "Let him be accursed." Every evangelical Christian in the world stands under the official never-changed curse of the Roman church. And we need to be aware of that fact. Now I admire the church, the Roman communion of the sixteenth century, for at least understanding what apparently people don't understand today and that's what's at stake here, that they understood that somebody is under the anathema of God. And we can be as nice and as pleasant and as gentle and as loving and as charitable and as tolerant as we possibly can be but it's not going to change that. Somebody is preaching a different gospel and when Rome condemned the Protestant declaration of justification by faith alone, I believe that Rome when placing the anathema on sola fide placed the anathema of God upon themselves.
Catholic theology can't be amended because it's infallible
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm
In general, exemption or immunity from liability to error or failure; in particular in theological usage, the supernatural prerogative by which the Church of Christ is, by a special Divine assistance, preserved from liability to error in her definitive dogmatic teaching regarding matters of faith and morals.
Ecumenical councils
1
An ecumenical or general, as distinguished from a particular or provincial council, is an assembly of bishops which juridically represents the universal Church as hierarchically constituted by Christ; and, since the primacy of Peter and of his successor, the pope, is an essential feature in the hierarchical constitution of the Church, it follows that there can be no such thing as an ecumenical council independent of, or in opposition to, the pope. No body can perform a strictly corporate function validly without the consent and co-operation of its head. Hence:
� the right to summon an ecumenical council belongs properly to the pope alone, though by his express or presumed consent given ante or post factum, the summons may be issued, as in the case of most of the early councils, in the name of the civil authority. For ecumenicity in the adequate sense all the bishops of the world in communion with the Holy See should be summoned, but it is not required that all or even a majority should be present.
� As regards the conduct of the deliberations, the right of presidency, of course, belongs to the pope or his representative; while as regards the decisions arrived at unanimity is not required.
� Finally, papal approbation is required to give ecumenical value and authority to conciliar decrees, and this must be subsequent to conciliar action, unless the pope, by his personal presence and conscience, has already given his official ratification
Here are some quotes from the council of Trent.
ON JUSTIFICATION
CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.
CANON XII.-If any one saith, that justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ's sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified; let him be anathema.
CANON XVI.-If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema
CANON XVIII.-If any one saith, that the commandments of God are, even for one that is justified and constituted in grace, impossible to keep; let him be anathema.
CANON XXX.-If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema
CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose [Page 49] living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema
CANON XXXIII.-If any one saith,that,by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.
ON THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST
CANON I.-If any one denieth, that, in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, are contained truly, really, and substantially, the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ; but saith that He is only therein as in a sign, or in figure, or virtue; let him be anathema.
CANON lI.-If any one saith, that, in the sacred and holy sacrament of the Eucharist, the substance of the bread and wine remains conjointly with the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, and denieth that wonderful and singular conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the Body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the Blood-the species Only of the bread and wine remaining-which conversion indeed the Catholic Church most aptly calls Transubstantiation; let him be anathema.
CANON III.-If any one denieth, that, in the venerable sacrament of the Eucharist, the whole Christ is contained under each [Page 83] species, and under every part of each species, when separated; let him be anathema.
CANON IV.-If any one saith, that, after the consecration is completed, the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ are not in the admirable sacrament of the Eucharist, but (are there) only during the use, whilst it is being taken, and not either before or after; and that, in the hosts, or consecrated particles, which are reserved or which remain after communion, the true Body of the Lord remaineth not; let him be anathema.
CANON V.-If any one saith, either that the principal fruit of the most holy Eucharist is the remission of sins, or, that other effects do not result therefrom; let him be anathema.
CANON VI.-If any one saith, that, in the holy sacrament of the Eucharist, Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, is not to be adored with the worship, even external of latria; and is, consequently, neither to be venerated with a special festive solemnity, nor to be solemnly borne about in processions, according to the laudable and universal rite and custom of holy church; or, is not to be proposed publicly to the people to be adored, and that the adorers thereof are idolators; let him be anathema.
CANON VII.-If any one saith, that it is not lawful for the sacred Eucharist to be reserved in the sacrarium, but that, immediately after consecration, it must necessarily be distributed amongst those present; or, that it is not lawful that it be carried with honour to the sick; let him be anathema.
CANON VIII.-lf any one saith, that Christ, given in the Eucharist, is eaten spiritually only, and not also sacramentally and really; let him be anathema.
CANON IX.-If any one denieth, that all and each of Christ's faithful of both sexes are bound, when they have attained to years of discretion, to communicate every year, at least at Easter, in accordance with the precept of holy Mother Church; let him be anathema.
[Page 84] CANON X.-If any one saith, that it is not lawful for the celebrating priest to communicate himself; let him be anathema.
CANON XI.-lf any one saith, that faith alone is a sufficient preparation for receiving the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist; let him be anathema. And for fear lest so great a sacrament may be received unworthily, and so unto death and condemnation, this holy Synod ordains and declares, that sacramental confession, when a confessor may be had, is of necessity to be made beforehand, by those whose conscience is burthened with mortal sin, how contrite even soever they may think themselves. But if any one shall presume to teach, preach, or obstinately to assert, or even in public disputation to defend the contrary, he shall be thereupon excommunicated.
ON THE SACRIFICE OF THE MASS.
CANON I.--If any one saith, that in the mass a true and proper sacriflce is not offered to God; or, that to be offered is nothing else but that Christ is given us to eat; let him be anathema.
CANON II.--If any one saith, that by those words, Do this for the commemoration of me (Luke xxii. 19), Christ did not institute the apostles priests; or, did not ordain that they, and other priests should offer His own body and blood; let him be anathema.
CANON III.--If any one saith, that the sacrifice of the mass is only a sacrifice of praise and of thanksgiving; or, that it is a [Page 159] bare commemoration of the sacrifice consummated on the cross, but not a propitiatory sacrifice; or, that it profits him only who receives; and that it ought not to be offered for the living and the dead for sins, pains, satisfactions, and other necessities; let him be anathema.
CANON IV.--If any one saith, that, by the sacrifice of the mass, a blasphemy is cast upon the most holy sacrifice of Christ consummated on the cross; or, that it is thereby derogated from; let him be anathema.
CANON V.--If any one saith, that it is an imposture to celebrate masses in honour of the saints, and for obtaining their intercession with God, as the Church intends; let him be anathema.
CANON VI.--If any one saith, that the canon of the mass contains errors, and is therefore to be abrogated; let him be anathema.
CANON VII.--If any one saith, that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs, which the Catholic Church makes use of in the celebration of masses, are incentives to impiety, rather than offices of piety; let him be anathema.
CANON VIII.--If any one saith, that masses, wherein the priest alone communicates sacramentally, are unlawful, and are, therefore, to be abrogated; let him be anathema.
CANON IX.--If any one saith, that the rite of the Roman Church, according to which a part of the canon and the words of consecration are pronounced in a low tone, is to be condemned; or, that the mass ought to be celebrated in the vulgar tongue only; or, that water ought not to be mixed with the wine that is to be offered in the chalice, for that it is contrary to the institution of Christ; let him be anathema.
ON THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF PENANCE
CANON I.--If any one saith, that in the Catholic Church Penance is not truly and properly a sacrament, instituted by Christ our Lord for reconciling the faithful unto God, as often as they fall into sin after baptism; let him be anathema.
CANON II.--If any one, confounding the sacraments, saith that baptism is itself the sacrament of Penance, as though these two Sacraments were not distinct, and that therefore Penance is not rightly called a second plank after shipwreck; let him be anathema.
CANON III.--If any one saith, that those words of the Lord the Saviour, Receive ye the Holy Ghost, whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them, and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained, are not to be understood of the power of forgiving and of retaining sins in the Sacrament of penance, as the Catholic Church has always from the beginning understood them; but wrests them, contrary to the institution of this sacra ment, to the power of preaching the gospel; let him be anathema.
[Page 108] CANON IV.--If any one denieth, that, for the entire and perfect remission of sins, there are required three acts in the penitent, which are as it were the matter of the sacrament of Penance, to wit, contrition, confession, and satisfaction, which are called the three parts of penance; or saith that there are two parts only of penance, to wit, the terrors with which the conscience is smitten upon being convinced of sin, and the faith, generated by the gospel, or by the absolution, whereby one believes that his sins are forgiven him through Christ; let him be anathema.
CANON V.--If any one saith, that the contrition which is acquired by means of the examination, collection, and detestation of sins,--whereby one thinks over his years in the bitterness of his soul, by pondering on the grievousness, the multitude, the filthiness of his sins, the loss of eternal blessedness, and the eternal damnation which he has incurred, having therewith the purpose of a better life,--is not a true and profitable sorrow, does not prepare for grace, but makes a man a hypocrite and a greater sinner; in fine, that this (contrition) is a forced and not free and voluntary sorrow; let him be anathema.
CANON VI.--If any one denieth, either that sacramental confession was instituted, or is necessary to salvation, of divine right; or saith, that the manner of confessing secretly to a priest alone, which the Church hath ever observed from the beginning, and doth observe, is alien from the institution and command of Christ, and is a human invention; let him be anathema.
CANON VII.--If any one saith, that, in the sacrament of Penance, it is not necessary, of divine right, for the remission of sins, to confess all and singular the mortal sins which after due and diligent previous meditation are remembered, even those (mortal sins) which are secret, and those which are opposed to the two last commandments of the Decalogtie, as also the circumstances which change the species of a sin; but (saith) that such confession is only useful to instruct and console the penitent, and that it was of old only observed in order to impose a [Page 109] canonical satisfaction; or saith that they, who strive to confess all their sins, wish to leave nothing to the divine mercy to pardon ; or, finally, that it is not lawful to confess venial sins ; let him be anathema.
CANON VIII.--If any one saith, that the confession of all sins, such as it is observed in the Church, is impossible, and is a human tradition to be abolished by the godly; or that all and each of the faithful of Christ, of either sex, are not obliged thereunto once a year, conformably to the constitution of the great Council of Lateran, and that, for this cause, the faithful of Christ are to be persuaded not to con fess during Lent; let him be anathema.
CANON IX.--If any one saith, that the sacramental absolution of the priest is not a judicial act, but a bare ministry of pronouncing and declaring sins to be forgiven to him who confesses; provided only he believe himself to be absolved, or (even though) the priest absolve not in earnest, but in joke; or saith, that the confession of the penitent is not required, in order that the priest may be able to absolve him; let him be anathema.
CANON X.--If any one saith, that priests, who are in mortal sin, have not the power of binding and of loosing; or, that not priests alone are the ministers of absolution, but that, to all and each of the faithful of Christ is it said: Whatsoever you shall bind upon earth shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven; and, whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained; by virtue of which words every one is able to absolve from sins, to wit, from public sins by reproof only, provided he who is reproved yield thereto, and from secret sins by a voluntary confession; let him be anathema.
CANON XI.--If any one saith, that bishops have not the right of reserving cases to themselves, except as regards external polity, and that therefore the reservation of cases hinders not but that a priest may truly absolve from reserved cases; let him be anathema.
[Page 110] CANON XII.--If any one saith, that God always remits the whole punishment together with the guilt, and that the satisfaction of penitents is no other than the faith whereby they apprehend that Christ has satisfied for them; let him be anathema.
CANON XIII.--If any one saith, that satisfaction for sins, as to their temporal punishment, is nowise made to God, through the merits of Jesus Christ, by the punishments inflicted by Him, and patiently borne, or by those enjoined by the priest, nor even by those voluntarily undertaken, as by fastings, prayers, almsdeeds, or by other works also of piety; and that, therefore, the best penance is merely a new life; let him be anathema.
CANON XIV.--If any one saith, that the satisfaction, by which enitents redeem their sins through Jesus Christ, are not a worship of God, but traditions of men, which obscure the doctrine of grace, and the true worship of God, and the benefit itself of the death of Christ; let him be anathema.
CANON XV.--If any one saith, that the keys are given to the Church, only to loose, not also to bind; and that, therefore, priests act contrary to the purpose of the keys, and contrary to the institution of Christ, when they impose punishments on those who confess; and that it is a fiction, that, after the eternal punishment, has, by virtue of the keys, been removed, there remains for the most part a temporal punishment to be discharged; let him be anathema.
ON THE SACRAMENT OF EXTREME UNCTION
CANON I.--If any one saith, that Extreme Unction is not truly and properly a sacrament, instituted by Christ our Lord, and promulgated by the blessed apostle James; but is only a rite received from the Fathers, or a human figment; let him be anathema.
[Page 111] CANON II.--If any one saith, that the sacred unction of the sick does not confer grace, nor remit sin, nor comfort(h) the sick; but that it has already ceased, as though it were of old only the grace of working Cures; let him be anathema.
CANON III.--If any one saith, that the rite and usage of Extreme Unction, which the holy Roman Church observes, is repugnant to the sentiment of the blessed apostle James, and that is therefore to be changed, and may, without sin, be contemned by Christians; let him be anathema.
CANON IV.--If any one saith, that the Presbyters of the Church, whom blessed James exhorts to be brought to anoint the sick, are not the priests who have been ordained by a bishop, but the elders in each community, and that for this Cause a priest alone is not the proper minister of Extreme Unction; let him be anathema.
Catholic theology can't be amended because it's infallible.
I would like to clarify on my question I�m not asking if all Catholics are saved I�m ask whether the way the get �saved� is true. Also I�m not claming that all people who name the name of Christ are saved I believe there are a lot of people in churches of all denominations that have never had a true relationship with Christ.
Sir here is a good answer, Calvinism is not right, nor do they agree with the gospel, so every man's responsibility is to be right with God,before straightening out any body else
