Ephesians 1:4 According as He hath chosen us in Him (this was addressed to believers - those in Him - only believers are "in Christ") before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:
Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open the seals thereof: for you were slain, and have redeemed us to God by your blood out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation;
This is talking about the fact that of all the nations, tongues, tribes, etc. not all believed. So there is a remnant that DO believe - this does not mean that Christ only wanted some to be saved. We already know from scripture that it is God's desire that ALL be saved and that ALL should come to repentance (2Pet 3:9). So... scripture must agree with other scriptures that are very clear.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins.
"He will save His people...." Christ died for everyone, though He foreknew that not everyone would believe in Him. His people are "them that believe".
1Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
John 10:15 As the Father knows me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Christ died "for His sheep" and also everyone else, even those who will never become His sheep.
2Pet 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who shall secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
If I say, "Christ died for me", does that mean He only died for me? nope. Again, we have to reconcile this verse with all the others that speak of His atonement.
Ephesians 1:4 According as He hath chosen us in Him (this was addressed to believers - those in Him - only believers are "in Christ") before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:
This verse is saying that BELIEVERS were chosen, and for this purpose - "that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love".
5: Having predestinated us (believers, those in Him, verse 4) unto the adoption of children (He has predestined that BELIEVERS - the "us" - would be "adopted as children") by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
John 6:37 All that the Father gives me shall come to me; and he that comes to me I will in no wise cast out.
38: For I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of Him that sent me.
39: And this is the Father's will who has sent me, that of all that He has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40: And this is the will of Him that sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise Him up at the last day.
Only believers will come to Christ, they are the ones given to Christ by the Father. Even though all are drawn by the Holy Spirit -
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
The gift of salvation is for everyone, but not all will believe... not all will choose to receive the gift. Christ turns no one away who comes to Him.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare His generation? for He was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was He stricken.
"the transgression of my people" - Israel and also all people, since all are sinners.
11: He shall see the travail of His soul, and shall be satisfied: by His knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for He shall bear their iniquities.
12: Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong; because He has poured out His soul unto death: and He was numbered with the transgressors; and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
"many", meaning a multitude of people. Clarke's commentary has this to say:
Isa 53:12 He bare the sin of many - רבים rabbi m, the multitudes, the many that were made sinners by the offenses of one; i.e., the whole human race; for all have sinned - all have fallen; and for all that have sinned, and for all that have fallen, Jesus Christ died.
In a previous verse in this chapter of Isaiah,
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone to his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
"the iniquity of us all". Who are the "all"? ALL those who have gone astray. which also agrees with these verses -
Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
How many were born ungodly? Obviously, EVERYONE.
Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
All were condemned, and the gift was for all men.
Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all.
1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ (refer to Ephes 1:4 - "He hath chosen us IN HIM" - in Christ, believers) shall all be made alive.
2Cor 5:21 For He has made Him, who knew no sin, to be sin for us; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.
We know from reading the previous verses (as well as other salvation passages) that the "us" is all sinners - everyone, as shown here:
2Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ constrains us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15: And that He died for all, that they who live should no longer live unto themselves, but unto Him who died for them, and rose again.
Vicarious atonement - meaning "serving in or taking the place of something (or someone) else" - substitutionary. According to scripture, Christ's death was a substitute FOR SINNERS -
1Pet 3:18 For Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust (the unjust being everyone, since we are all sinners, none excluded), that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive by the Spirit:
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
This principle is to always be applied when approaching the word of God, The word of God is TRUTH, when two scriptures seem to oppose one another, we must look for a third to reconcile the two, for it is impossible for God to Lie!!
John 10:15 As the Father knows me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Christ died "for His sheep" and also everyone else, even those who will never become His sheep.
James replies:
that is NOT what Jesus said! YOU said, "and also everyone else".
Jesus says the OPPOSITE of that!!
John 17:1-2 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and
said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify
thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal
life to as many as thou hast given him.
Got that PJ? "To as many as God has given to Him"
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the
sheep....Joh 10:14-15 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known
of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my
life for the sheep.
Now, PJ, that is JESUS TELLING YOU WHO HE DIED FOR.
You wish to say, "But James, Jesus' "sheep" is everyone in the whole world!!"
John 10: 24-29: [the unbelieving Jews demanded of Him] "If you are
the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus answered them, "I told you, and
you do not believe. The works that I do in my Fathers name, they
bear witness to me; but you do not believe, BECAUSE YOU DO NOT BELONG
TO MY SHEEP. MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE, AND I KNOW THEM AND THEY
FOLLOW ME;AND I GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE, AND THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH,
AND NO ONE IS ABLE TO SNATCH THEM OUT OF MY HAND. MY FATHER, WHO HAS
GIVEN THEM TO ME, IS GREATER THAN ALL, AND NO ONE IS ABLE TO SNATCH
THEM OUT OF THE FATHER'S HAND.
Jesus PLAINLY died for a certain GROUP of people, whom God had specifically
GIVEN TO HIM. If you ignore these scriptures, and just use a couple "all"
verses, and demand that that mean "everybody who ever lived", then YOU ARE
MAKING THE BIBLE CONTRADICT ITSELF.
You need to think about this........
Since you have just read that Jesus SAID he died for the "sheep" and he told some people that "You do not belong to my sheep" THEN JESUS DID NOT DIE FOR EVERYONE WHO EVER LIVED!!
There is nothing to think About James, there are those that agree with the word of God, and they believe it is true, Jesus said to believe, not to think, that is how you come up upside down.
Now here is something for you to chew on, Jesus did not lie, you don't pick scriptures you want to manipulate and call him a liar, you either believe him or you don't.
There is another fact even if it was wrong, you tell me who would get the glory Satan or Jesus, if he only died for a few, what makes you think you are so special, that you call my father and my lord a liar.
No James i didn't add anything to the word, in case you forget Jesus is the word.
You see this is Jesus to those who believe his word:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
If this verse is not true, no other verse is!!
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Now here is so some of the Apostles doctrine specifically dealing with who can be saved:
Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
'
Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Picking and choosing what you want to believe is not believing but manipulating.
James of course this passage also illuminates another lie, what one must do to be saved.
It says that the whole kingdom of God is built by the principle of what you hear and the attitude one takes to what they hear.
The bible teaches Faith cometh from the word, not from regeneration, and it also tells us without faith it is impossible to please him.
Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him
Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Joh 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
Ac 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
James why do you say Phillip says, as if I wrote the bible.
2Co 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man�s conscience in the sight of God.
1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
The instruction to a christian is to believe the word of God is the word of God
You will find this principle thruout the bible if you will hear and believe and obey.
I hope I am not coming into a scene where I am tugging on a growling dogs ears, but I think there is some miscommunication here-
scripture clearly states that all who call upon the name of Jesus Christ will be saved. And those who place their trust in Jesus will not parish.
The exact verses escape me at the moment, but the first is in romans, and the other the gospel of John. I think at the heart of this discussion is something that theologians have argued over for centuries, and that's the debate clearly explained in Arminianism and Calvinism.
Personally, Jesus did die for all of mankind, so that they would have the opportunity to be saved, not that everyone WOULD be saved. God still grants us free will, that is a choice. We can choose to follow God/Jesus, or we can decide not to, and because of that indecision make a choice to follow the devil.
Gentlemen, I am a little disappointed in the overall atmosphere of this discussion, and would encourage both of you to consider 2Timothy2:24-26, not only for those that are reading this post, but for your own spiritual growth and maturity.
Love you both, and hope we all continue to learn and grow in grace.
Let me ask you this do you believe that people Jesus died for are in hell? And if so what does that say about the atonement? That Christ took the wrath for their sins and they have to go through hell anyway.
Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
oh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Joh 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
Joh 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
Ac 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Ro 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Ro 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Ro 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed
Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Ro 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
Ok you believe the word of God is true. Do you believe that people in hell right now had their sins paid for on the cross? Yes or no. if you believe the word of God is true then you must believe 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. So I plead ignorance please tell me what you think and show me out of the bible. Are people in hell even though their sin was paid for on the cross?
