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Questions for Walter.......
Posted : 1 May, 2010 12:52 PM
Hi Everyone,
Walter said:
When we examine God and His sovereignty from a Calvinistic perspective we see that God predetermines some people for salvation and others to damnation without anyone having a choice in the matter. If this were to be really true then Calvinists have a serious problem with the scriptures.
James replies:
well, that is a lie. Notice how Walter starts out implying that there is nothing wrong with fallen mankind! We are all fine, we just need to make a decision for Jesus!
The Bible teaches that because of The Fall, everyone's will is born enslaved to sin. So if every single person on Earth, were to make their decision on whether or not to repent and accept Jesus, then EVERY SINGLE PERSON would reject Jesus. Because Adam and Eve were our perfect representatives, meaning we would have done same thing, AND our actual sins we have committed, we are deserving of Hell. Walter makes it sound like some people want to go to Heaven, but God won't let them! The opposite is true. NO ONE wants to go to heaven, and God CAUSES them to come alive spiritually.
1. fallen mans will enslaved to sin:
EPHESIANS 2:1-3 and you he MADE ALIVE, when you were DEAD through
trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of
this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit
that is now at work in the sons of disobedience. Among these we all
once lived in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of
body and mind, and so we were BY NATURE children of wrath, like the
rest of mankind.
2.Adam and Eve our perfect representatives:
Romans 5:12; Therefore as sin came into the world through one man
[Adam, see vs. 14] and DEATH through sin, and so death spread to all
men because all men sinned. (This is speaking of Spiritual death)
3. God CAUSES His chosen people to come alive spiritually:
EPHESIANS 2:1-3 and you he MADE ALIVE, when you were DEAD (spiritually dead)
4. Because men are born in sin and are by nature spiritually dead,
Jesus taught that men must be born anew if they are to enter God's
kingdom.
John 3:5-7; Jesus answered, "Truly, Truly, I say unto you, unless
one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot ENTER the kingdom of
God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is
born of the Spirit is Spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you,
'YOU MUST BE BORN ANEW'" compare John 1:12,13
Got that? That is JESUS saying that you have to be born again, BEFORE you can ENTER the kingdom of God.
Jesus told Nicodemus that he could not even SEE the Kingdom of God unless he was FIRST, born again.
Walter said above that God predetermines some to "damnation without anyone having a choice in the matter."
Walter acts like some are seeking for God, but God won't let them chose!
Here is what the Apostle Paul said about this: Romans 3:11 " NO ONE seeks for God".
Have you ever heard a Christian say, "well, so and so is seeking for God...."
According to the Bible, NO ONE is seeking for God!
The foundational problem with how most Modern Christians think, is that they ignore The Fall of man.
I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt Calvinists are the ONLY ONES who take The Fall seriously!
If you read Genesis, and you read the curses and punishments that God gave Adam and Eve, you will HAVE to admit that WE RECEIVED THE SAME PUNISHMENTS!!
Read the list of punishments that Adam got, and EVERY MAN SINCE THEN has the SAME curses and is BORN with them!
Read the list of punishments that Eve god, and EVERY WOMAN SINCE THEN has the EXACT SAME curses.
The next time someone says, "deep down we are all good people.."
read them this list of Scriptures that tell us the TRUE nature of mankind:
Psalm 51:5; Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did
my mother conceive me.
Psalm 58:3; The wicked go astray from the womb, the err from their
birth, speaking lies.
Gen. 6:5; The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the
earth, and that EVERY IMAGINATION OF THE THOUGHTS OF HIS HEART WAS
ONLY EVIL CONTINUALLY.
Gen. 8:21...The imagination of man's heart is EVIL from his youth..
Ecclesiastes 9:3...The HEARTS of men are FULL OF EVIL, and madness is
in their hearts while they live...
Jeremiah 17:9; The HEART IS DECEITFUL ABOVE ALL THINGS, and
DESPERATELY CORRUPT; who can understand it?
Mark 7:21-23; "For from within, OUT OF THE HEART OF MAN, come evil
thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness,
deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these
evil things come from within, and they defile a man."
John 3:19; And this is the judgment, that the light has come into
the world, and MEN LOVED DARKNESS, rather than light because their
deeds were evil.
Romans 8:7,8; For the MIND that is set on the flesh is hostile to
God; IT does not submit to God's law, indeed it CANNOT; and those who
are in the flesh CANNOT PLEASE GOD.
1 Corinthians 2:14: The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts
of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and, HE IS NOT ABLE
TO UNDERSTAND THEM because they are spiritually discerned.
Ephesians 4:17-19: Now this I affirm and testify in the Lord, that
you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their
minds; they are DARKENED IN THEIR UNDERSTANDING, alienated from the
life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, DUE TO THEIR
HARDNESS OF HEART; they have become callous and have given themselves
up to licentiousness, greedy to practice every kind of uncleanness.
Ephesians 5:8 For once you were DARKNESS, but now you are light in the
Lord...
Titus 1:15: To the pure all things are pure, but to the corrupt and
unbelieving nothing is pure; THEIR VERY MINDS AND CONSCIENCES ARE
CORRUPTED.
Walter continues:
2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. NKJV
"not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance".
James replies:
Yes, walter that is true. God is not willing that ANY OF HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE WILL PERISH.
Who was 2 Pet.3:9 written to? It was written TO Christians.
Arminians have two sets of verses that they give you. The "world" verses and the "all" verses.
Now, Arminians will NEVER deal with the verses that CONTRADICT their interpretation that "all" and "world" means "everybody who ever lived". They won't deal with the verses Calvinists give them, because they make the Bible contradict itself, so instead they just focus on these two sets of verses.
Walter continues:
So the scriptures tell us that God is not willing, in other words it is GOD's WILL that NONE should perish but that ALL come to repentance. So why is it then that not everyone comes to repentance and why is it then that not all will be saved? Why is it then since it is GOD's sovereign will that no one should perish but yet they do?
James replies:
Because of your demand that the word "all' and "world" means "everyone who ever lived"., then YOU have a problem!
I don't because I KNOW that "all" means "all of God's chosen people" and the "world" means "People from all over the world, and not just Jerusalem".
Walter continues:
On one hand Calvinist claim that God predetermines salvation only to His "elect" and yet we see that God's will is that none should ever perish. This makes God to be a schizophrenic or something worse if we follow Calvin's teachings.
James replies:
NO it does not! God wills that NONE OF HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE WILL PERISH, AND HE MAKES CERTAIN THEY DON'T!
Walter continues:
However what we do see from better eyes is that God is a loving God and wants everyone to be saved.
James replies:
You are implying that God is not loving unless He has a sentimental desire for everyone to be saved!
What kind of god, WANTS everysingle person to be saved, but somehow can't or won't make it happen???
The Bible says that God controls every subatomic particle on the universe and that NOTHING happens outside of His will!
Walter continues:
Yet we know from scriptures that actually most will not be saved and in fact we also know that most Christians will end up abandoning Christ and committing Apostasy in the last days. So how is this resolved?
James replies:
Well, it is worse than that walter! I don't know what percentage of the worlds population you think are saved, but I would put it at about 8%.
Walter continues:
One of the many problems and inconsistency of Calvinism is that they fail to see that God, though all sovereign, places on Himself a limitation on His sovereign will that allows man a free will in certain situations.
James replies:
Scripture reference please! You arminians SAY THIS OVER AND OVER. WHERE IS IT IN THE BIBLE?
Free will? You want some Scripture on whether or not FALLEN MAN has a perfectly free will and the ABILITY to choose Jesus or not? Here you go:
Romans 8:7,8; For the MIND that is set on the flesh is hostile to
God; IT does not submit to God's law, indeed it CANNOT; and those who
are in the flesh CANNOT PLEASE GOD.
1 Corinthians 2:14: The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts
of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and, HE IS NOT ABLE
TO UNDERSTAND THEM because they are spiritually discerned.
Got that Walter? They CAN NOT and They are NOT ABLE.
Titus 1:15: To the pure all things are pure, but to the corrupt and
unbelieving nothing is pure; THEIR VERY MINDS AND CONSCIENCES ARE
CORRUPTED.
Uh Walter, that says that those who don't believe have minds and consciences that are corrupted!
That does not sound like they have a free will does it? well if non believers have a mind and conscience that is corrupted I wonder how bad it really is..........
John 8:44 You are of YOUR FATHER THE DEVIL, and YOUR WILL is to do
your father's desires.
Ephesians 2:1,2; And you he made alive, when you were dead through
the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the
course of this world, FOLLOWING THE PRINCE OF THE POWER OF THE AIR,
the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience.
2 Timothy 2:25,26; God may perhaps grant that they will repent and
come to know the truth, and they may escape from THE SNARE OF THE
DEVIL, after being CAPTURED BY HIM TO DO HIS WILL.
1 John 3:10; By this it may be seen who are the children of God,
and who are the CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL: whoever does not do right is
not of God, nor he who does not love his brother.
1John 5:19; We know that we are of God, and the whole world is IN
THE POWER OF THE EVIL ONE.
John 8:34; Jesus answered them, "Truly , Truly, I say to you,
every one who commits sin is a SLAVE TO SIN".
Romans 6:20; When you were SLAVES OF SIN, you were free in regard to
righteousness.
Titus 3:3; For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led
astray, SLAVES to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in
malice and envy, hated by men and hating one another.
But certainly, like you were saying walter, that a person has the ABILITY to turn their life around right?
Job 15:14-16; What is a man, that he can be clean? Or he that is
born of a woman, that he can be righteous? Behold, God puts no trust
in his holy ones, and the heavens are not clean in his sight; how
much less one who is abominable and corrupt, A MAN WHO DRINKS
INIQUITY LIKE WATER!
Proverbs 20:9; Who can say, "I have made my heart clean; I am pure
from my sin?"
JOB 14:4; Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean?
There is not one.
Jeremiah 13:23; Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his
spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil.
Okay, but hey, Walter would maybe say, "that is OLD Testament, and Jesus is more open minded about these things"
John 6:44; NO ONE CAN COME TO ME UNLESS the Father who sent me
DRAWS HIM; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:56; And he said, "This is why I told you that NO ONE CAN COME
TO ME UNLESS IT IS GRANTED HIM BY THE FATHER."
Okay Walter, and everyone else who believes fallen man has a perfectly free will and the ABILITY to come to Jesus on their own by making a decision, here is a pop quiz:
Q. According to Jesus, HOW MANY PEOPLE CAN come to Jesus by their own ability?
How many? That is right. NO ONE.
For extra credit answer the following:
"If God gave everyone this ability, then WHY would Jesus and Paul make such a big deal out of this subject and teach, and repeat it over and over? "
Walter continues:
If God can do whatever He wants to, then is not God sovereign enough to place a limit on His own sovereignty within certain parameters in dealing with man and Free Will? Of course He does!
James replies:
Of course He DID. Past tense. Adam and Eve HAD free will. They had a perfectly free will, and like Satan freely CHOSE to rebel against God. All of mankind since Adam and Eve are born totally spiritually dead. If anyone wants MORE Scriptures on this, I WILL LIST THEM. THERE ARE MORE! Walter on the other hand HAS NOTHING. Ask Walter for ONE verse that says that God put a limit on His own sovereignty! Jesus did not even get to chose who He would die for, but said REPEATEDLY that He would give His life for "those that the father has given me".
Walter continues:
In many scriptures we see a consistent teaching that God has given man a Free will to choose Christ through His drawing by the Holy Spirit and a Free Will to resist the drawing of the Holy Spirit including Christians resisting that draw.
James replies:
That is a lie! PRODUCE ONE Walter! ALL I ask for is ONE!! There are NONE! Why? I just listed ten that say that fallen man does NOT have the ability! Eph.2:8,9 SAYS that Faith itself is a gift from God.
Does God give this gift to everyone? No. I will tell you what you have walter, and you have three categories of verses that you fall back on and not one of them say what you want them to say.
You will give verses where Jesus tells people to repent and believe in Him, and then say, "see, that means we have free will"
It does not. Because God commands all people to repent and believe in Jesus, does NOT mean they have the ability!
If you owe me a Million dollars and I command you to pay back what you owe, that does NOT mean you have the ability!
It just means YOU OWE IT.
Then you have two other kinds of verses. The "all" and the "world" verses.
Walter continues:
"'Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL PEOPLES to Myself.' This He said, signifying by what death He would die" (John 12:31-33).
James replies:
This is something that is lost on us moderns. At it was a totally new concept that HAD TO BE TAUGHT to people in Jesus day. Up until Jesus, God ONLY SAVED PEOPLE IN ONE PARTICULAR LOCATION ON EARTH. You had to become a Jew, or be born a Jew. Which meant temple sacrifices, and that meant living NEAR the temple. Now, God was going to do something COMPLETELY NEW, and that is God was going to save "ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE" and "PEOPLE FROM ALL OVER THE EARTH". This was a completely new concept, and this is what is being taught when you read the "world" verses and the one walter just gave. To you and I, the idea that God would save people from all over the world, is something we all know and believe. But to the ancient Jew, it was not even thought of!
Walter continues:
"In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that ALL through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light which gives light TO EVERY MAN COMING INTO THE WORLD." (John 1:4-9).
James replies:
True, and this has happened. Jesus is held up as moral perfection in almost every nation in the world.
But again, in order to NOT make the Bible contradict itself, the word "all" means "all of God's chosen people".
Again if anyone wants a scripture list of verses showing that Jesus died for specific group of people, I will list it.
Walter continues:
Below from: http://www.pfrs.org/calvinism/calvin04.html
"Scripture indicates that the grace leading to salvation is "resistible." It also plainly states that it is shown to everyone. Paul wrote to Titus, "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men." (Titus 2:11). Calvinists frequently claim that the word "all" in such verses does not mean everyone, but can refer to all the elect. It is true that "all" is sometimes limited by the context.
James replies:
"sometimes"? I would say that the word "all" HARDLY EVER means "every person who ever lived"!
If I say, "Hey that PhillipJohn is a funny guy, I think you all know what I mean", then the word "all" means
"all the people on this discussion board".
The word "all" is ALWAYS limited by context! If I say, "all mankind" it does not include monkeys!
Walter continues:
However, in this case, "all" is an adjective modifying "men" (anthropos). When "all" is used without modifying a specific noun, it may be limited by the context. That is, its antecedent might be stated elsewhere in the passage or even be implied but not stated. However, when it modifies a particular noun in a specific clause, it cannot be limited by the general context. It is limited only by the noun it modifies. The Greek word "anthropos" (men) refers to humanity, not the "elect." Therefore, the passage cannot rightly be limited to the elect. It refers to everyone.
James replies:
Yes, and when "all" is used in a letter to a church then it could mean "all the members of the church".
Walter continues:
There are two facts we can conclude from Titus 2:11. The first is clearly stated. God's saving grace has been shown to every individual.
James replies:
Not true then! Some people have died not hearing about Jesus. So, your interpretation of "all" makes the Bible not true!
"
Walter continues:
The second is a necessary inference. Since not all on whom God shows the "grace that bringeth salvation" are saved, God's saving grace cannot be "irresistible" or always "effectual." It is effectual only on those who respond positively.
James replies:
That is true walter. Now WHO WILL "respond positively"?
I have forgotten how many verses I have posted in this reply that contradict the free will idea, but here is another one:
1 Corinthians 2:14; The UNSPIRITUAL MAN does not receive the gifts
of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and HE IS NOT ABLE
TO UNDERSTAND THEM because they are spiritually discerned.
That was just a reminder, but again WHO Walter WILL "respond positively" when they hear the Gospel?
You know, in the Book of Acts we have the Disciples preaching to crowds, and guess what it says in Acts 13:48?
When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
Got that Walter? How many "responded postively"? "As many as Had been APPOINTED TO eternal life".
Who was it that said, "Many are called but few are chosen"?
Walter continues:
It is not effectual for those who resist. The same "grace of God that bringeth salvation" was shown to the men Steven addressed in the Sanhedrin. "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST THE HOLY GHOST: as your fathers did, so do ye." (Acts 7:51).
James replies:
How many times do they resist the Holy Spirit? "ALWAYS" 100% of the time Walter! You would think that if they had a free will, then at least SOME of the times they would not resist, right?
Walter continues:
The Calvinism - Arminianism debate hinges on one question. Everything else is an attempt to harmonize the biblical data with the answer to this question. Who makes the decision regarding salvation � God or man? "Provision" is not at issue. That is God's alone. "Power" is not at issue. It is all of God. The Calvinist says God alone makes the "provision" for a few. He alone has the "power" to save. And the choice is His alone. The Arminian says God made provision for all. The power to save is God's alone. The choice is mans' only when God enables him to choose, and provides him with what is necessary to believe. His choice is between continuing to resist God's grace, or to stop resisting God's grace.
James replies:
The Calvinist answers your hard questions, with Scripture, and is sometimes hated for it. The Arminian gives you soft and sentimental answers, with ZERO scripture to back it up, and they are never hated for it.
Walter asks: "Who makes the decision regarding Salvation --God or man? Here is my Question for Walter: "How many times does God have to say something before you decide it is true?!?
Time for more Scripture on: Who makes the decision regarding Salvation"?
Rom 8:28-31 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Joh 6:39-40 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
I know this post is getting long so here is a list you can look up on WHO saves who:
Psa 65:4; Mat 24:24; John 6:37; John 15:16; Act 13:48; Rom 8:28-30; Rom 9:10-24; Rom 11:5-7; Eph 1:3-6; Eph 1:11-12; 1The 1:4; 1The 5:9; 2The 2:13-14
Hey Walter! I found a verse with the word "will" in it:
Heb 13:20-21 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do HIS will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Walter continues:
The Calvinist claims that any effort on man's part, no matter how small, constitutes "works," making man responsible for his own salvation. This has been the main reason for Calvinism's wide acceptance among Evangelicals. However, it is a false premise, and leads to false conclusions.
James replies:
That is a weird statement. The Bible says that fallen mankind has no ability to come to Jesus, and that IF you are a Christian that you need to realize that ALL of your salvation, even the FAITH you have, is a gift from God. You have nothing in yourself.
1 Corinthians 4:7; For who sees anything different in you? What
have you that you did not receive? If then you received it,
WHY DO YOU BOAST AS IF IT WERE NOT A GIFT?
Walter continues:
The whole issue really revolves around "resistance." Arminians agree that man is totally incapable of saving himself.
James replies:
The Arminian TELLS you that YOUR DECISION was the deciding point of your salvation!!!!
Walter continues:
We agree that man is even incapable of contributing to his own salvation in the slightest way. We will go so far as to say that man cannot even choose of his own free will to receive the gift of God unless God first enables him to do so.
James replies:
This is totally inconsistent. First according to Arminians we have the ABILITY and a free will to chose or not.
Then, they say man can NOT choose UNLESS God enables them!
God does not "enable" anyone. Where is this concept in the Bible???
Walter continues:
However, we also believe that God gives all people this ability through the power inherent in the Gospel,
James replies:
All right, so according to Arminians God gives everyone who ever lived the ability to freely choose Jesus.
WHY THEN do SUCH A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE ACCEPT JESUS?
WHY THEN do such a large majority REJECT JESUS?
Don't you think that IF we had a free will that the rate would be somewhere near 50/50?
I mean if all mankind was fallen with a will ENSLAVED TO SIN, then I could see such a low percentage of mankind accepting Jesus, wait......that is what the BIBLE SAYS!
Walter continues:
in conjunction with the Holy Spirit's drawing all men. The issue then is whether or not man resists the Holy Spirit until He draws them no more, or whether they stop resisting the Spirit at some point, and God saves them.
James replies:
The issue is that since Christians are still sinful, that some of them have WAY too high a view of fallen mankind and themselves, and they refuse to allow God to have ALL the glory for their own salvation and want to PRETEND that some of it is theirs! IIIIIIIIIIII accepted Jesus! IIIIIIIIIIIII repented! as a matter of fact, IIIIIIIIII really saved myself because IIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIImade the decision to follow Jesus! You want to know why I accepted Jesus and my
neighbor Joe did not? Because silly! IIIIIIIIIIIIIII am a good person!! (a BETTER person than Joe!)
You want to know why IIIIII saw my need for Jesus and my neighbor Joe did not?
Because IIIIIIIIIIIIIII am SMARTER than my neighbor Joe!! When you get down to it, it is REALLY all about MEEEE!!!
Right???
OR....it might happen like this:
For [God] says to Moses, �I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.� It does not, therefore, depend on man�s desire or effort, but on God�s mercy. ROMANS 9:15-16
Walter continues:
Let's use the example of a drowning man who cannot swim. This analogy has commonly been used in the Calvinism - Arminian debate. Calvinists falsely portray the Arminian position as God's throwing man a life preserver, and man's reaching out to grab it, and clinging to it by his own strength. Consequently, man must ACT on his own behalf (reaching for the life preserver), and continuing to act in cooperation with God's pulling him to safety (by continuing to cling to it). Man's own strength in reaching for the life preserver, and holding on to it, contributes to his being rescued. This might be a true representation of Pelagianism or even semi-Pelagianism held by Catholics, but not consistent Arminianism. It is a false analogy.
The true analogy would be that Jesus jumps into the water to save the drowning sinner. He swims to Him, reaches out and grabs him. He repeatedly shouts to him to stop struggling, and He will save him. He continues to warn him that his own struggling will make it impossible to save him. And He continues to grab hold of the man, attempting to pull him to safety. The drowning man can either continue to struggle to save himself, resisting Christ's persistent and long suffering efforts to save him, or he can trust Christ, stop resisting and fighting against the water, and allow Christ to pull him to safety. If he stops fighting and resisting, and relaxes, trusting Christ to save him, he will be saved. If he persists in his own struggle, he will drown.
James replies:
So, Jesus CAN'T save a person UNLESS they stop "Struggling"?
Lets let Jesus speak on this:
John 10: 24-29: [the unbelieving Jews demanded of Him] "If you are
the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus answered them, "I told you, and
you do not believe. The works that I do in my Fathers name, they
bear witness to me; but you do not believe, BECAUSE YOU DO NOT BELONG
TO MY SHEEP. MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE, AND I KNOW THEM AND THEY
FOLLOW ME;AND I GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE, AND THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH,
AND NO ONE IS ABLE TO SNATCH THEM OUT OF MY HAND. MY FATHER, WHO HAS
GIVEN THEM TO ME, IS GREATER THAN ALL, AND NO ONE IS ABLE TO SNATCH
THEM OUT OF THE FATHER'S HAND.
Since Walter gave an analogy, here is one from a Calvinist:
"Therefore, in all synergistic theologies, God's love for people is always conditional. In other words, in synergism, a condition must be met by persons for God's love to kick in or take effect, so to speak. Particular Redemption Vs. Potential Redemption are, therefore, perhaps the most succinct ways to describe the realities of the theologies ... See Moreheld. Particular redemption is like a parents love for his children. When he sees his child run into the street, he does not merely call to him hoping for a response. He runs out into the street, rather, to make certain his child does not get run over. True love gets the job done."
(anonymous)
Walter titled this post, "Is God a schizophrenic?", which I don't even feel comfortable quoting him on that.
I think it would be more accurate to say that Arminians are at least inconsistent in what they say the believe, and how they act.
You are not a Calvinist, but you are praying for someone you love who you know is not a Christian?
How do you pray to God then? Do you pray:
"Oh Lord, don't violate their free will or anything, but maybe just nudge them a bit...." ???
Or......do you pray like a Calvinist, and say, "God please save them!"
The god the Arminian portrays is not all powerful and has a sentimental, promiscuous love.
The Bible teaches that the LOVE of God is ALL Powerful, and Intense and PERSONAL Love!!!
1 Corinthians 4:7; For who sees anything different in you? What
have you that you did not receive? If then you received it,
WHY DO YOU BOAST AS IF IT WERE NOT A GIFT?
I am a Christian. I have studied the Bible for many years, and I am convinced that the ONLY reason that I am a Christian, is because God had mercy on me, a wicked sinner, and He chose me NOT for anything I had done, or will do, but for a reason I don't know. What I DO know is that if I had been left to my "free" will, I would be either in Hell at this moment or on my way there! God is the one who saved me, and I owe my faith, to Him and I depend on His power and mercy to CAUSE me to persevere in the faith, and to grow more like Jesus. I depend on Him alone.
For those of you who would like NOTHING BUT the list of Scripture verses on the five points, and to see just HOW sovereign God is over ALL His creation, here is the best web page I know of, with NOTHING BUT Scripture verses>
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/gracelist.html
In Christ,
James
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