"To deny Calvinism is to deny the Gospel" - Charles H. Spurgeon
"Arminianism is nothing more than transcendent atheism" - John Owen
"Calvinism proclaims a God who saves; Arminianism speaks of a God who enables man to save himself." - J.I.Packer
A simple reading of the Bible proclaims the doctrines of grace and if that is not enough (and it is for me) I can list hundreds even thousands of great theologians from the past, that were way smarter than all of us put together on these forums, that believed the doctrines of grace as described in Calvinism.
Fifty-four godly men translated the King James version of the Bible. Lancelot Andrews spoke Latin, Greek, Hebrew, Chaldee, Syriac, Arabic and at least fifteen other languages. Of the fifty-four translators, four were college presidents, six were bishops, five were deans, thirty held PhD�s, thirty-nine held Masters degrees, there were forty-one university professors, thirteen were masters of the Hebrew language, and ten had mastered Greek. Every man involved in the King James Bible translation believed in the verbal inspiration of the Scriptures, all believed in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and all were men of prayer. Many were not only Biblical scholars and master linguists, but also God-called, Spirit-filled preachers.
The King James translation team was arguably the most scholarly men ever assembled for any similar endeavor.
Walter the fact you think you have found something in the Greek these men didn't see or know cracks me up big time!:dunce:
PhillipJohn your uneducated rants expose you for what you are and the Christian in me keeps me from using a list of words on you that come to mind when describing the uneducated. :goofball:
For me I'll stick to the Holy Spirit and the dead guys for clarity of understanding on theology from the scriptures.
Rather than follow the exodus away from these forums I have "chosen" to ignore the 2 men I have called out because it is a waste of time, unless I am looking for a good laugh then I'll read some of PJ's short off the wall comments that make little to no sense or applies to the thread he comments in.
The Bible is like a prisoner of war, you torcher it enough it will say what you want it to say.
It is no surprise that your limited and twisted view of Arminian theology would be based upon other Calvinists who do not understand it and twist it to foster their agenda. Do yourself a favor and try to learn Arminian Theology from true Arminians.
Just because YOU claim these "Calvinists" were great men of God does not mean they were. A man who teaches heresy is still a heretic no matter how famous he is or how much you boast about him.
The translators of the KJV were mere men who were Calvinists and whose bias was obvious. Greek scholars are very much aware of this and that is one of the reasons why the New King James was developed. To correct MANY of the grammatical errors the Calvinists made even though it is also not perfect. The problem is that you really do not understand Greek and therefore it is a typical ploy for those who do not to ridicule those who do or at least attempt to study Greek and be open to the truth of God's word in studying His word. If you understood Greek you would have admitted to the grammatical errors of at least some of the passages I have demonstrated to be in error.
The article on Ephesians one was written by a friend of mine Roger, who has his Master's in Greek and now is working on his Hebrew. My pastor edited the Article to make it smaller as it is a huge article. By the way it was a Calvinist professor who graded this paper with an A+ and had no grammatical errors. The Calvinist Professor did not like the conclusions but had no choice but to give an A+ on the paper. Do you have a Master's in Greek Darrell? Steve? James? It speaks volumes about you when you are so critical and mock at someone presenting the Greek properly all because it refutes your twisted interpretations of scripture. I would have had greater respect for you had you at least admitted your ignorance of Greek instead of resorting to mockery.
2Cor 10:12 For we dare not class ourselves or compare ourselves with those who commend themselves. But they, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
...four were college presidents, six were bishops, five were deans, thirty held PhD�s, thirty-nine held Masters degrees, there were forty-one university professors, thirteen were masters of the Hebrew language, and ten had mastered Greek. Every man involved in the King James Bible translation believed in the verbal inspiration of the Scriptures, all believed in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and all were men of prayer. Many were not only Biblical scholars and master linguists, but also God-called, Spirit-filled preachers....
Let me see 54 of God-called, Spirit-filled preachers some of the smartest religious men of their time or Walter and his pastor??? hmmm...I need to think about this.
I am ignorant of Greek but I can think logically (an attribute given to man from God if only we would use it) and to claim these guys did not have the Holy Spirit guiding them as they took on the project of translating the Bible into the language of the people is just stupid. A Bible that has stood the test of time. Heresies come and go with passing generations like Arinianism but the truth always stands the test of time.
So you believe you and your pastor out smarted 54 scholars on Ephesians you got hundreds of other verse to keep dancing on. Go do a Geek study on Romans 9 and see how you tap dance all over that chapter.
I know some Greek and Hebrew, maybe not as much as those translators. But anyway, if you know at least one other language (or one other dialect of your mother tungue, though I wonder if there are real dialects in English, maybe sociolects work as well) you know that every translation, however goo the translator is, can only get you some of what is originally said. Puns are hard to translate etc...
So maybe you can loose something when reading an English bible you wouldn't loose when reading original texts.
Speaking of original texts. There have been new manuscripts found that differ a bit from what was around back then, there have been advances in language study of ancient Greek and before all Hebrew, things those great scholars had no chance of knowing but we can know today.
What I want to say: Even if Walter is wrong in his post (I don't know which you mean but I've found that I disagree in quite some points with him, no offense, just what I've found) your main point in this thread is not convincing, at least not for me.
Of course, you have to depend on those, who know the language, but do not make them gods, they can fail, and every new insight might be better and get you closer to God. This does not mean to trust in everything people who claim to know the language (you have no proof I really know some Greek) is true. But it can be a hint to follow after, maybe looking at different available bible translations and trying to find out this way or by reading commentaries or asking your pastor (at least in Germany pastors, at least those of mainline christianity, do have to know Greek and Hebrew, I don't know about how this is in the USA)...
You are right provided that the reader pursues the goal to really learn
As soon as new discoveries are abused for personal promotion of denominational preference, people lose themselves in unlimited egotripping.
Also, you are a student in theology and are being taught by authorized and proven professors, which is not to be confused with selfmade pastors who make a church for their living.
True, I'm tought by proven profs, and some of them are realy great, but none has the full truth and with some I have some major disagreements, ike the one that said it was okay to run a church hospital by standards of market economy...
Independend from proven prof or not, the whole thing will get corrupted i one tries to get his own promotion through clever and �ber scientific reseach or whatever, this is aso true for transltion work of the bible.
But I think in the first run one has to consider that the opponent in a debate coul also be right, and then seek for reasons why he would be or would not be.
What I mean is: The argument, that great scholars have translated the KJV doesn't count for me to reject Walter's views, because if that was an argument, we would not ever need a new bible translation again an it would make no sense to teach theology students Greek...
Maybe Walter has made a mistake in his translation, this i possible, I do not know which verse or translation the whole issue is about anyway, but if somebody starts to use Greek as an argument in the debate, you can only proof him wrong with some Greek on your own, not with poeple you think that know Greek better, for you cannot proof it.
I know this from debates in German anguage forums, where I translated bible verses for better understanding and the poeple told me, that Luther probably knew better Greek or Hebrew, or that the Hoffnung f�r Alle (hope for all) bible translation was better than what I translate because it comes in prited form and you can buy it in shops...
I might not be the best translator, I know I am lowsy in some parts, but obvious mistakes or inaccurencies I can identify rather well...
Maybe it is this experience that let me speak up against the "good wise scholars" argument made here...:peace:
I understand your point of view and I fully agree with it, as you are a fair and open debater. You are not obsessed, nor otherwise determined to abuse this forum to every time come up with your own fixed ideas and attack and demonize everybody who dares speak against you.
The reality of this forum is hardly a healthy debate nor does it serve the purpose (anymore) for one to learn something while reading or posting questions. It has become a pathetic battle between so called christians who pretend to save the world better than God Himself can. It has come to the point where even other threads, with a total different issue, are invaded by them to "spread" their word.
In my opinion God is well capable of putting into heaven who He wants but not according to some. They think He needs their help! Everybody must be saved, and must be saved by them, through them and according to them.
I live with the idea that Jesus came to earth to provide salvation but since I am here on this forum, I am led to believe that this is just an interpretation of man.... indeed, some elect forum members have this executive calling and authority. Only their church is right and leads to the light. Others are incorrect, incomplete or totally wrong and have in common that they are run by satan himself and lead to hell.
This is not a debate forum, it is a publicity forum. Opinions are not welcome here, only second grade sermons of those who are obsessed with their own ideas.
I think people like you should not waste their precious time here no more as you will not be taken seriously.... IF you are lucky enough to get an answer, it is to tell you how much you have twisted God�s word and how deeply the satan has digged into your heart.
I sincerely admire your kindness and patience on this forum because if you would lower yourself in treating those, like they treat you.... I think they would have denounced you to the administration a long time ago.
I think you are a wonderful member of this community Benny!
So Abedjau,you think that The all mighty god would allow the most widely translation ever to be incorrect,so that someday the "great prophet Walter"could come and set it all straight for the 10 people on christiandatingforfree.com forums,sorry,dont blank on my leg and tell me its raining.Maybe he wanted it to have a "doctrines of grace"bent to it,because its the truth
