One of the many mistakes made by Calvinists is how they overlook the grammar of certain passages. In the case of Ephesians 1, a passage that deals with the issue of "Predestination", when we pay close attention to the personal pronouns we discover something that does not support the Calvinistic view of Predestination. What we find is that it is the nation of Israel that was "predestined", not Gentiles, not Christians. Notice in verse 3-12 Paul's exclusive use of "First Person Plural pronouns". This is significant and if you do not comprehend the grammar you will misinterpret this passage and it's proper application like Calvinists do.
Ephesians 1:
1 � Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 � Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed US with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose US in Him before the foundation of the world, that WE should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 HAVING PREDESTINED US to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made US accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him WE have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He made to abound toward US in all wisdom and prudence,
9 having made known to US the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth��in Him.
11 In Him also WE have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
12 THAT WE WHO FIRST TRUSTED IN CHRIST should be to the praise of His glory.
Now notice the change in the FIRST personal plural pronouns from we and us to SECOND person plural pronouns of "YOU" and "YOUR". This shows us that in the previous verses Paul was including himself among a group of people that were not Gentiles. There is a separation between these two groups. Verses 3-12 indicate that Paul is referring to the nation of Israel. Then below Paul addresses another group. The Gentiles.
13 In Him YOU ALSO TRUSTED, after YOU heard the word of truth, the gospel of YOUR salvation; in whom also, having believed, YOU were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
15 � Therefore I also, after I heard of YOUR faith in the Lord Jesus and YOUR love for all the saints,
16 do not cease to give thanks for YOU, making mention of YOU in my prayers:
17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,
18 the eyes of YOUR understanding being enlightened; that YOU may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power
20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.
22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church,
23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all. NKJV
The simple conclusion is that this passage in no way supports Calvinism but actually proves them to be in serious error. It is the Nation of Israel that was "Predestined" not Gentiles.
For a thorough scholarly exegesis of this passage go here: http://www.pfrs.org/calvinism/eph1_3.html
WOW! Where do they teach tap dancing in theology? Let's just say for a moment you are correct concerning the verses you just hashed. How do explain away the hundreds of other verses? What about Romans 9?
The answer is very simple when you treat the word of God as true, and you find two verses opposing one another, you must step back and adjust, for the word is not wrong
Genesis 21:12-13 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called. 13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.
Exodus 9:16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.
Exodus 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
Deuteronomy 4:37 And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them, and brought thee out in his sight with his mighty power out of Egypt;
Deuteronomy 7:7-8 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: 8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
Deuteronomy 10:15 Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.
Deuteronomy 32:8 When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
Joshua 11:20 For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses.
1 Samuel 12:22 For the LORD will not forsake his people for his great name�s sake: because it hath pleased the LORD to make you his people.
1 Kings 12:15 Wherefore the king hearkened not unto the people; for the cause was from the LORD, that he might perform his saying, which the LORD spake by Ahijah the Shilonite unto Jeroboam the son of Nebat.
1 Kings 20:42 And he said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Because thou hast let go out of thy hand a man whom I appointed to utter destruction, therefore thy life shall go for his life, and thy people for his people.
2 Kings 19:25 Hast thou not heard long ago how I have done it, and of ancient times that I have formed it? now have I brought it to pass, that thou shouldest be to lay waste fenced cities into ruinous heaps.
2 Chronicles 6:6 But I have chosen Jerusalem, that my name might be there; and have chosen David to be over my people Israel.
Job 23:10 But he knoweth the way that I take: [when] he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold.
Job 23:13 But he [is] in one [mind], and who can turn him? and [what] his soul desireth, even [that] he doeth.
Job 23:14 For he performeth [the thing that is] appointed for me: and many such [things are] with him.
Psalms 4:8 I will both lay me down in peace, and sleep: for thou, LORD, only makest me dwell in safety.
Psalms 9:9 The LORD also will be a refuge for the oppressed, a refuge in times of trouble.
Psalms 18:28 For thou wilt light my candle: the LORD my God will enlighten my darkness.
Psalms 27:1 { [A Psalm] of David.} The LORD [is] my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD [is] the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?
Psalms 27:5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.
(Psalms 33:12) Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.
Psalms 37:39 But the salvation of the righteous [is] of the LORD: [he is] their strength in the time of trouble.
Psalms 48:14 For this God [is] our God for ever and ever: he will be our guide [even] unto death.
Psalms 55:22 Cast thy burden upon the LORD, and he shall sustain thee: he shall never suffer the righteous to be moved.
Psalms 56:8 Thou tellest my wanderings: put thou my tears into thy bottle: [are they] not in thy book?
Psalms 56:13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: [wilt] not [thou deliver] my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?
Psalms 57:2 I will cry unto God most high; unto God that performeth [all things] for me.
Psalms 65:4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.
Psalms 78:67 Moreover he refused the tabernacle of Joseph, and chose not the tribe of Ephraim:
Psalms 105:17-22 He sent a man before them, even Joseph, who was sold for a servant: 18 Whose feet they hurt with fetters: he was laid in iron: 19 Until the time that his word came: the word of the LORD tried him. 20 The king sent and loosed him; even the ruler of the people, and let him go free. 21 He made him lord of his house, and ruler of all his substance: 22 To bind his princes at his pleasure; and teach his senators wisdom.
Psalms 100:3 Know ye that the LORD he [is] God: [it is] he [that] hath made us, and not we ourselves; [we are] his people, and the sheep of his pasture.
Psalms 118:24 This [is] the day [which] the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
Psalms 135:4 For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.
Isaiah 41:13 For I the LORD thy God will hold thy right hand, saying unto thee, Fear not; I will help thee.
Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Isaiah 43:5 Fear not: for I [am] with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;
Isaiah 43:6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;
Isaiah 43:7 [Even] every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.
Isaiah 44:1 Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen:
Isaiah 49:15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.
Isaiah 49:16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of [my] hands; thy walls [are] continually before me.
Jeremiah 1:4-5 4 � Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Malachi 1:2-3 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob�s brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, 3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Matthew 11:25-26 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Matthew 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
Matthew 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect�s sake those days shall be shortened.
Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Matthew 22:40-41 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. 41 � While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Matthew 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect�s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mark 14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.
Luke 4:25-27 25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; 26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow. 27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.
Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
Luke 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
Luke 17:34-36 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luke 18:7 And shall not Godenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
John 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
John 21:23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
Romans 1:6 among whom are you also, called-out ones of Jesus Christ;
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us?
Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Romans 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Rom 9:7,8 nor because they are Abraham�s seed are all children, but "In Isaac a Seed shall be called to you." Gen 21:12 7
8 That is: Not the children of flesh are children of God, but the children of the promise are counted for a seed.
Rom 9:9-14 9 For the word of promise is this, According to this time I will come, and a son will be to Sarah. Gen 18:10
10 And not only so, but also Rebekah conceiving of one, our father Isaac,
11 for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of the One calling,
12 it was said to her, "The greater shall serve the lesser;" Gen 25:23 13 even as it has been written, "I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau." Mal 1:2,3
14 � What then shall we say? Is there not unrighteousness with God? Let it not be!
Rom 9:15-33 15 For He said to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will pity whomever I will pity." Exo 33:19
16 So, then, it is not of the one willing, nor of the one running, but of the One showing mercy, of God.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very thing I raised you up, so that I might show forth My power in you, and so that My name might be publicized in all the earth." Exo 9:16
18 So, then, to whom He desires, He shows mercy. And to whom He desires, He hardens.
19 You will then say to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?
20 Yes, rather, O man, who are you answering against God? Shall the thing formed say to the One forming it, Why did You make me like this? Isa 29:16
21 Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, out of the one lump to make one vessel to honor, and one to dishonor? Jer 18:6
22 But if God, desiring to show forth wrath, and to make His power known, endured in much long-suffering vessels of wrath having been fitted out for destruction,
23 and that He make known the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy which He before prepared for glory,
24 whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also out of nations.
25 � As also He says in Hosea, I will call those not My people, My people! And those not beloved, Beloved! Hosea 2:23
26 "And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there they will be called, Sons of the living God." LXX-Hos 2:1; MT-Hos 2:23
27 But Isaiah cries on behalf of Israel, "If the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, the remnant will be saved."
28 For He is bringing the matter to an end, and having been cut short "in righteousness," "because the Lord" "will do a thing cut short" "on the earth." Isa 10:22,23
29 And as Isaiah has said before, "Except the Lord of hosts left a seed to us, we would have become as Sodom, and we would have become as Gomorrah." Isa 1:9
30 � What then shall we say? That the nations not following after righteousness have taken on righteousness, but a righteousness of faith;
31 but Israel following after a law of righteousness did not arrive at a law of righteousness?
32 Why? Because it was not of faith, but as of works of Law. For they stumbled at the Stone-of-stumbling,
33 as it has been written, "Behold, I place in" "Zion a Stone-of-stumbling," "and a Rock-of-offense," "and everyone believing on Him will not be put to shame." LXX and MT-Isa 28:16; MT-Isa 8:14 (Romans 9:7-33)
Romans 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Romans 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Romans 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Romans 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.
Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
1 Corinthians 1:9 God [is] faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 Corinthians 1:26-29 26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1 Corinthians 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
1 Corinthians 15:57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 2:14 Now thanks [be] unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
Galatians 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother�s womb, and called me by his grace,
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Ephesians 1:9-11 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:
Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the pre-eminence.
Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.
Colossians 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Colossians 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
1 Thessalonians 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
1 Thessalonians 2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
Titus 1:1-2 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God�s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Hebrews 13:5 [Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Hebrews 13:6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord [is] my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.
James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures.
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
I could keep going,but im afraid i might lose some of the readers,LOL
The only way anyone can argue with a Calvinist is to close the Bible and try to reason with them. And that ain't happening with this Calvinist.
I had my long list of verses but someone beat me to it so I'll spare the space and not post them.
The doctrines of grace, election, atonement, perseverance and such have never been refuted from the Bible, that is why it won't go away. When you read the Bible without all the fancy foot work like the thread was started with, or twisting scriptures then you get a clear view of Gods sovereignty. And can understand His word. Leave your presumptions at the door and read it objectively and not subjectively.
The key to understanding scriptures is CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT!!!!
And remember do not try to teach an English class on what the Bible says, the Bible was written in another language not English so if ya want to get into tenses, verbs, nouns and pronouns then lets go to the Greek new testament and see where the emphases was added, not a faulty English translation.
Talking about taking a step back: How much does it play a role if we had a choice or not when God opened the truth to us? I mean, we are all here, believing, aren't we (or can anyone say otherwise about anyone here?).
So the only difference it makes is the personal approach one has. One wants to point out that he could do nothing on his own to be saved and follows the doctrine of election, while others want to point out that God is not evil and does not send innocent people to heel, thus they follow the doctrine of faith as works (as far as I understand it)...
But in the end it does not make a difference for us who we ARE saved, whatever our part in this has been. The only difference could be that one calls the other a nonbeliever for not doing this or that, or for not believing that one couldn't do a thing. This causes seperation if we are not careful. And as far as we are all believers (is there anyone who can prove otherwise) there shall not be seperation among us, as there is only one church, one body of Christ that we all belong to.
Mark if you want to see them, I can certainly post them here for you.
That is the problem with Arminian churches in general.
If you attend a Reformed church, you WILL hear the term Arminian, and Calvinism and you WILL hear the verses preached on and taught.
However, if you attend an Arminian church, the verses will never even be mentioned, much less taught in any adult Bible class!
So, you end up NEVER hearing those verses taught.
Remember the 50 verses I posted on the nature of fallen man?
Who hears those in an Arminian church? instead you get, "well we are all searching for God in some way.." or some nonesense, while the Apostle Paul says, "NO ONE searches for God.."!
Those first 50 verses I posted are the majority of the verses that teach about man's nature, or the first point known as "total inability". There are four more points, with more than a hundred verses total.
Which do you want first?
2. The verses that show that God unconditionally CHOOSES whom He will save?
3. The verses that show that Jesus died not for everybody, but specifically for His people?
4. The verses that show that God's grace is irresistable?
5. The verses that show that God will CAUSE His chosen people to persevere in the faith to the end?
These are pretty much just lists of Scriptures like the 50 I gave on the nature of fallen man.
