1Tim 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Oh, wait, sorry, got you wrong, you were focussing on election being the right or wrong way to see things, not about who was elected.
Did I get you right now? Before I assumed you agree with people being elected by God, so sorry for not getting your rather humourous approach. I gotta improof my English...
But all the passages in scripture don't speak against God doing everything and man doing nothing, or do I miss something again?
So this might lead to all people ending up in heaven, which would not be anything I would be angry about, but I am yet not sure about what the Lord thinks about it, after all, it's His will that counts and that wants what is best for all, even those who will burn in hell, if they will...
What Calvin writes about the double predestination is also not focussing too much on those who go to hell, but this is what people make of it. I don't know about the teachings of later Calvinism though. But I read the passages in Calvin's "Institution of the Christian Faith", and all he is after is to proof, that we cannot do any deed in order to save ourselves, for we are dependend on the Lord saving us, who has already done so, and there is no pope or bishop that can take being chosen by God away from us. I wonder if you would agree with that.
As far as I see it Calvin added the other part, being doomed to hell in case you are a nonbeliever (or being a nonbeliever because you are doomed to hell, that would be the same) to have consistency, because the bible speaks of the place of damnation...
But what Calvin wanted to express originally was the freedom we have in Christ, and the grace we live under.
Sadly people have later only focssed on those doomed, and thus came the image of God picking some for heaven by some temporal fancy (as if the Lord who loves us so much that he gave His son would at the same time doom people out of pure fancy).
But tell me one other thing: When Hebrews 2:9 says that Christ died for all men, would this mean everybody would be going to heaven? Or did Christ die for all but then God only elected some.
Now Mt 22:14: Many are called, but few are chosen. comes to my mind. My question then would be: What is the difference between those called and chosen? In the sotry the man has no wedding clothes, but the question is certainly not about the clothing. Maybe it is about his not answering to the king? But what would the answering then stand for?
This passage of scripture has been puzzeling me several times again and again, and no, I will not give in to the easy answer, that we have to behave according to God's will (to dress up nicely), because the deeds will come from faith (Gal 5,6) and faith is not our decision, but what God makes in us (John 6:28.29). So there must be another explaination than what seems to be the easiest: that it was dependend on what we do.
This is really not an easy issue and I have not yet ever seen anybody who brought all passages of scripture together on that case, unless he tried the easy way and said at several passages that this was only meant in that certain situation, like Jesus speaking in John only saying that the faith of those people was caused by God and not other people's faith etc...
The bible doesn't say faith was called, because faith is given by God because of His grace. It is nothing that can be asked for or called. That would be like me telling you "Be Chinese". You cannot be Chinese by yourself. You are of different heritage, ony God could possibly change this (this is just an image, don't get me like saying being Chinese was better than being American - before God we are all the same).
So I cannot agree with you that faith is a responsibility of us. We can only be responsible for what we do. But we don't do faith. We are put under the condition of faith by God.
You say I could make it easy by leavint he thinking behind. But how could I as I am told to do otherwise:
1. Thess 5:21:Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
How can I prove without thinking?
We seem to have oposite approaches on this. I say your fiath is given to you by the grace of God through Him alone and you have to use your brains to kow what to do and how to act in the world, based on God's revelation (bible).
You seem to say: You have to beliee in the word of God and then switch off yor brains and do what is written down. Do I get you right here?
I agree that the Lord does not commune with the mind. But I don't agree that I am not to think about interpretaions of the bible I am presented, like those you bring forth here. Don't get me wrong, much is true, but I still am told to prove, and this I do by thinking, which includes also bible lecture. We were not given our minds to not use them. If we are of God, we can use everything to His glory!
Yes you are to prove what is true, but you believe with the heart, or spirit, God is a Spirit not a mind.
Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved
1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
Mr 14:38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life
Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God
When in ancient texts people speak of thinking in the heart, they would say thinking in the brains. They had a different way of expressing this. It has nothing to do with emotions in the first place...
But if you are about to say that the Spirit is to support the thinking in order to lead to the truth, I agree completely with you, for without the Spirit, that we do not control, we can do nothing.
No Benny I don't say anything Scripture does, I did not write scripture, my place is to believe scripture, if we have trouble believing or understanding the word then we must do as Joshua teaches and proverbs 4:20
Light will always come when you obey the word of God.
The Holy Spirit is our helper, not our doer.
1 � Now after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses� minister, saying,
2 Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel.
3 Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you, as I said unto Moses.
4 From the wilderness and this Lebanon even unto the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the great sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your coast.
5 There shall not any man be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I was with Moses, so I will be with thee: I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.
6 Be strong and of a good courage: for unto this people shalt thou divide for an inheritance the land, which I sware unto their fathers to give them.
7 Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest.
8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.
9 Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the LORD thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest.
20 � My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings.
21 Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart.
22 For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh.
23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.
24 Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee.
