in recent threads I have noticed some people tossing around scripture quotes to prove arguments and sometimes hardly anything else. I got in some cases the idea that the application of scripture is lead by a certain basic thought, and scripture is used to back this up.
It has been stated several times that the scripture was infalibe. So based on the infability of scripture people argumented with scripture quotes to back up their thoughts.
Now I wonder in which way people here believe that scripture is infallible. I wonder which kind of application of scripture people here consider right, and which kind they consider wrong.
What is the position of scripture? What is the position of exegesis? What is the position of hermeneutics for people in this form?
I want to start out giving my thoughts, mabe I add to it or make things clearer in following posts. I find that I cannot make my thoughts clear in first times, but I try to get to the point
I do have my problems ith speaking of the scripture as being infallible. After all, scripture is a thing, a book, not alive, not doing anything on its own. How can scripture than be more infallible than an orange or a hammer?
One might say: An orange does not contain thoughts, scripture does, and those thoughts can be wrong or right. So in this way scripture can be more infallible than a hammer. A hammer contains no thoughts.
I am still not convinced, as the thoughts are not in the text we read, but the text constitutes those thoughts in our brains. Maybe it's not even the text alone but also other things that we have experienced etc. Like in the morning I have read about big companies firing workers and raising managment payments at the same time, so this causes certain thoughts when reading about the rich having a hard time getting into heaven etc.
A text itself does not do anything, it does not contain anything, it does not tell anything on its own. Take a text in a foreign language you don't know. It will tel you nothing. Or will it? Maybe you get some thoughts looking at the strange signs and symbols of a strange language, completely unrelated to the text itself but at the same time they were started by you looking at the text...
What I want to say is that I think you always need somebody alive to have thoughts, a nonliving thing does not think and cannot contain thoughts. A dead thing can not even make thoughts for others, it is always somebody living who has thoughts and makes thoughts, produces them, based on things we see, hear, read, smell, remember, whatever.
So this is also true for the bible, if we can say that the bible is a dead thing. I do think that the bible is dead. It is not infallible, as a dead thing does not fit into categories as fallibility or infallibility. The bible is not God, because God consists of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and those are alive. Bible is not human, and not animal, not even plant. Not alive.
Everything we get from the bible is what we get from it by reading it ourselves, so all action comes either from us (as we are alive) or from somebody else, also alive, like the Holy Spirit, or simply somebody who explains things to us or tells us how he or she sees it. This person can him- or herself be guided by the Hoy Spirit. Or possibly aso by Satan, who knows...?
So I read the bible mysef, wehn I read it, and I tend not to think of it as a set of rules, because wide parts of the bible are not rules, but stories told. There are letters, there are arguments of every kind in scripture. Some things are said without being in the focus, others are in focus. I try to find out what the author of a biblical text wanted to say by writing it, or what a redactor wanted to say, as many biblical texts are the result of a redaction that changed the original ideas of different authors, for example the story of the great flood compared to the epic of Gilgamesh...
Reading the bibe and getting ideas about what authors and redactors might have said alone brings me nothing. This is only exegesis. It is important to what extent and for what I use the findings of bible lecture, so to say: What is my target. Aso the question what do I presume before, like what I wrote above...
I can find myself hermeneutics, there are various on the market, even when you reduce your search to theology or even prtestant theology.
But I still think, this is not enough: I myself cannot get anything infallible out of the bible, as whatever I get from it is what I made of it, as stated above. And I am falible, so whatever I get out of the bible myself is fallible, and this is true for every other person, however pious he or she might be, for nobody can get rid of his or her carnal mind.
It is my strong believe, that we need necessaryly the Holy Spirit to get anything good from the bible. If we try to get something from it without the Holy Spirit we can only get false thoughts in the end. And we cannot control the Holy Spirit, as the Holy Spirit is God and God cannot be and will not be controlled by men.
This is why I am doubtful about quoting scripture in postings. I do so myself, and I wonder hwo much of it is good. I think it can ony be okay if there was some personal revelation about that passage, so we are only repeating what God told us personally through this piece of scripture.
So I read my scripture and hope for the Lord to open it to me. At some pieces He did, with most He didn't, and many are connected with passages where He spoke to me.
This is why I hardly back up my words on here with scripture (this and being lazy searching and not knowing so much of it by heart as others do).
Taking some scripture that gets in my line of thoughts can be supporting what I think, but also be meant in a different way. Without revelation from God, how can I know? So if I cannot know, how can I bring it forth here on the forums?
So I rather want to speak of what I was told by the Lord, or maybe what I think I was told. I want to speak about what I experienced in the Spirit, and I am also looking for people sharing their thoughts with me. Because there is something I have not spoke about yet:
What if we are mislead, how can we know?
Actually know, like knowing 2+2=4 we can never do (if you guys know the movie Matrix you know the thought that we can not know anything for sure).
But we are all followers of Christ, and we are told to be in contact, to meet for service and help one another, have love for one another. So we also speak about our personal revelations, and if there are others with the same revelation this is a hint, or if there are some who have a revelation that tells us differently. And finally there is always scripture to be read by us, waiting for further revelation, for furtherly being touched by Him. He will correct us if we go wrong one way or another. And our sisters and brothers can give us hints, hopefully without condemning (as this does only drive poeple further apart from one another, and this is a result ony Satan can like, that people are far away from one another).
So what do you guys think about scripture not being arguments for debate, but content to be spoken about? About the Holy Spirit not being the researched object of discussion (and thus a to-be-controlled-by-men-object) but being a sought but uncontrollable base for ourselves.
Tell me about your thoughts, and God bless you all.
You sound rather frustrated and confused, in some of what you speak. You also have made some very valid points and raised a few good mind provoking questions...
Am I hearing you say that it confuses you as to who or what a person should or shouldn't believe when it comes to interpreting the meaning and what God is saying in scripture?
Are you asking, if we are to believe man's interpretation of scripture, through his use of exegesis and hermeneutics, or do we read God's word for oursevles, and do as He has told us to do, allow the Holy Spirit to lead us into all understanding and His word of Truth, and His revelation of His word?...
let me know if this is what you're speaking about. In the meantime, here is what most all Christians believe and it can be found in most all Christian Churches. Of course, some have it worded differently, but means the same. Also, I've only used part I, of 18 Parts.
Christian Articles of Faith:
We believe that the Holy Bible was written by men divinely chosen and inspired by God, and that the Bible is a perfect treasure of heavenly instructions; That the Bible has God for its author, salvation for its end, and truth without any mixing of error for its matter; That the Bible, God's divine word, reveals the principles of righteousness by which God will judge all of us for our sins and good works, and therefore is, and shall remain to the end of the world, the true center of Christian union, and the supreme standard by which all humans conduct, creed, and opinion shall be tried.
hi Abedjau, i concur. people always talk talk talk about scripture, as though they have been programmed to give a certain response to a certain question. people also form opinions then go to the bible to find scripture to back it up. i'm with you totally about the posting of scripture. i tend to only talk about what i have experienced with my walk with Christ. and it "coincidentally" lines up with perfectly with the words of the bible, sometimes is talk about scripture that i have never read (the essence of it) as a byproduct of walking daily with God. i see people ask for advice all the time on this forum, and some of them specify that they would rather not hear the textbook answers but real feedback from posters. most people do not get this, or like me they simply have not been there yet and cannot offer a suitable response. but most of the replies are textbook and not very personal. i never brought it up because i figure that God is still doing a work in all of us, and who am i to judge? but recently i read a thread by a very nice lady who retorted "not everyone that says unto me Lord Lord.."-"i never knew you, depart from me.."
nyanda:purpleangel:
p.s to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God..
Some Christians think that sharing the Gospel means supporting everything they say with chapter and verse. The Truth is that they should be the Gospel. Peter said, 1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give an answer to everyone asking you a reason concerning the hope in you, with meekness and fear," My question is what do they see in you that makes them believe you have a hope in you? It's a lifestyle and not how well you can quote Scripture.
I rarely quote the Bible when I talk to people about God or what the Bible says. )I do use it here in the forums.) I also rarely read any Christian books or listen to Christian music. Most of it drives me nuts with all the inaccuracies and misuses of Scripture. I also don't understand repetitious "worship" music.
The problem is that not many Christians know what to really believe because they don't take the time to learn for themselves and they believe whoever tickles their ears. When someone who thinks differently than they do or challenges what they believe they get defensive and quote their rhetoric and never question if what they believe might be incorrect or inaccurate. You have to be a good student to be a good teacher.
Thak you everybody for taking the time answering to my post.
@Ella:
I guess you maybe misunderstood my point a bit. I am not really confused an frustrated. I have found my way of dealing with scripture and I am happy with it. But I see here in the forums that some use scripture in a whole different way, so I thought: Let's speak about it and try to understand one another, so I put on my understanding of the whole thing, including some points I do not yet really understand in other people's use of scripture.
I tried to point out that however we read scripture we do interpret it one way or another. Always, but there are different ways of interpretig. Different hermeneutics. Different preconditions. One important precondition for me is: Scripture is not God.
Even if we read it for ourselves and try to do what He told us to, we will be interpreting it. I do all the exegesis and interpretation in order to understand Him better. But I do also think that the only difference is not whether to use science or not, but whether we read and use scripture in faith or without faith. If we read it without faith, we can take it literaly and still not get the message. We can use all the newest findings of bibical science and still get the message, if we read in faith and let the Spirit work in us.
My main point was: Here you have the way I read the bible, how do you do it and how does this fit together or not.
Do you have a link to the "Christian articles of faith" you quoted here? I tried to find what it is but googe didn't help me. It seemed to be some creed of the Baptist churches, but I am not sure.
I would also disagree that this is what most Christians believe, but maybe this is due to us living in different cultures. In Europe we believe differently, so most churches here would maybe not follow this text you quoted, though I gess when spoken about both would agree on another text with similar thoughts.
Maybe this thread can go in such a direction, as I guess mot people here will have an American cultural background.
I hope I didn't offend you in any way writing this, I didn't mean to.
@Nyanda: Yes, I have some similar thoughts. Scipture is for us individually, to get coser to the Lord reading it. But it is not the universal guide book to people, as every person s different. As for advice, it is always a good start, but the most important is to be personal to the person, not to be the know it all who gives one size fits all answers derived from scripture, but to give advice in love and maybe with an example from scripture. But most important should be to connect to the person seeking advice and not treat them as a case to which one only needs to add the right portion of scripture... that is not persona, that is not in love, that is just not taking the time and effort to really answer, at least that's how things seem to me, you certainly cannot see it like black and white... But this i a whole different issue I guess...
@Thunder:
I know what you mean about the inaccurancy part, another thing especially with Christian music is that most is superficial. They do sing things that are accurate, but then it's just not more than "Christ died for us", which is right, but not very stimulating, I like lyrics that go deeper, I like music to be art, make me think, so I get more about the truth in songs like Papa Roach's "Last Resort" than in Christian music that tells me again and again that Christ has risen, because in Last Resort I hear something about the lostness of man, and it is real, it expreses the pain of being lost (though not making up the connection to Christ) very realistically...
I aso agree with you about Christians not knowin what they believe. I found some following preachers or certain denominatinal dogmas rather than God Himself. I cannot say that I am free from following others, but I do believe that I have my eyes open to see alternatives. This is dangerous, as I can be fooled, but it is also a good thing, as I do not stay in old ways that are possiby wrong just because of tradition...
You're right about the over use(over kill) of scriptures, and how they are sometimes misused and too much depends on man's tools as to how to go about interpreting what God is saying, with the use such coined phrases and methods as exegesis and the use of hermeneutics, which is nothing more than a scientific method created by man, NOT GOD..
This is for the most part off course and a science man came up with for his own understanding and interpretation of God's word, of what man thinks God is saying..But Jesus tells us that the Holy Spirit Himself will lead us into revelation and open our eyes into understanding of what God is speaking to us, if we study and allow the Holy Spirit to speak to us about God's word.
Although, we are to hear and test the spirit of what others are saying as not to be misled by false teachers and false doctrines of the gospel, as many did in the 1st century.
There are many cultic churches and false teachers as were in the 1st century church who depended upon their own interpretation of God's word, and misled the people of God, and this is dangerous, and there are many doing so today... teaching false doctrine because they have not understood nor compared what they THINK God has told (revealed) to them in scripture.
So qouting scripture is important as when in discussions about Jesus and God's word, but over kill and not depending upon the Holy Spirit for revelation is even more dangerous. There must be a balance. You can't find anywhere in the Holy Bible where Jesus or the disciples didn't quote scripture when making their points. The only thing, they never quoted chapters and verse numbers, And the reason for this is because the Bible was not written in chapter or verse numbering, it was written in letter format by the scribes to be read before the church and people.
Jesus tells us to study the word to show ourselves approved by God, and we also find in the Book of Acts wherein, it is told to us that the people also searched the scriptures after hearing Peter and the apostles preeach about Jesus, to see if what they said was true and compared what they said to what the written word said.
Listing a long list of scriptures, and not being able to breakdown what the scritpures mean each one of them, doesn't help any one either. lol
Anyway, please know there is nothing you've said in your comments offended me, I'm not one to be easierly offended. So for you and everyone, don't ever think you make offend me in what you have to say to me...:hearts:
Obedjau, ALL Christian churches, synagogues and whatever have written statements of faith declairing their faith and/or religious belief systems. It has nothing to do with you being in Germany or England, or your culture, even your country has a statement of its belief system, busineses who must file incroperation of the company must write its beleif or purpose, usually in their written policies of the company. This is a part of the believe system of most every organization even cults have statements of what they beleiveetc.
So if you have not seen your churches statement of faith, that a different story, and I would suggest you go to your pastor or ministry leader and seek one out, because there is a written statement, or should be anyway. Infact, I think all persons who belong to a church or synagogue or wherever, should seek out their religious statement of faith or statement of whatever you believe from your church leader or rabbi. It not just a baptist thing is a purpose thing... lol
Here's on I found, becaue the part I wrote for you came from my papers, and I don't know how to scan it online for you.
_______________________________________________
Clarifying Christianity, Our Statement of Faith
Someone new to Christianity or churches will naturally wonder what a �statement of faith� is. It is a way of telling other people what you believe about God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Bible, and so forth. This is important, because there are a lot of cults that pretend to be Christian organizations, which are not Christian at all. A statement of faith can be used as an indicator toward learning whether an organization represents true Christianity.
Clarifying Christianity is based on the Bible alone. We believe that the Bible is God�s �word� (communication to us) written by men, but directed and inspired by God through the Holy Spirit (also called the Holy Ghost). It contains no errors, and is the complete, final, and only authority in all matters of faith and conduct. (See 2 Timothy 3:16,17; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; and 2 Peter 1:20,21.)
We believe that God the Father is perfect in holiness, infinite in wisdom, and measureless in power. God showed His love for all people by sending His Son to die for our sins so that we might have eternal life with God in heaven. (Luke 18:27; John 3:16,17; Romans 11:33; 1 Peter 1:16; 1 John 4:7-10; Revelation 4:8.)
We believe that Jesus is the Son of God, God Himself, and that He became completely man. Conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit, He was born of the virgin Mary. Jesus lived a sinless life, and chose to die as the perfect sacrifice for the sins of all people. He was bodily resurrected from the dead and appeared to many people. He now sits at the �right hand of God� (the highest place of honor and power), interceding (standing in to provide protection) for the sins of His people (those who accepted him as Savior and Lord). He will come in glory to righteously judge all people based on their acceptance or rejection of Him. Jesus is the only way to bridge the gap of sin between God and people, thus He is the only way to have a relationship with God now, and eternal life with God in heaven. (Matthew 16:16,17 and 25:31-46; Mark 14:61,62; Luke 1:34,35 and 2:7; John 1:1 and 1:14 and 5:22-30 and 10:30 and 14:6; Acts 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:3-8; Hebrews 4:15; 1 Peter 2:22-24.)
We believe that the Holy Spirit convicts the world concerning sin, righteousness, and judgment. He is received in full when someone gets right with God through Jesus, so all true Christians �have the Holy Spirit.� He is the power that Christians have that enables them to live a Christ-like life (as God leads them). The Holy Spirit is our pledge (or �down-payment�) of eternal life. (John 16:8-11; Acts 2:38; Romans 8:9; Galatians 5:16-26; 1 John 3:24.)
We believe that mankind was created in the image of God and given rule over all the earth. Man forfeited everything when he chose to disobey God (in the Garden of Eden) in spite of warnings regarding the consequences for doing so. As a result sorrow, tears, pain, sickness, death, and all that is �not good� came into existence. This was never God�s intention (and therefore not His fault). All of the people who lived since that time have also sinned, for which the penalty is death. Only through accepting Jesus as Savior and by making Him Lord of your life can you spend eternity with God in heaven. Those who reject or ignore Jesus Christ will suffer God�s wrath for their sins and will suffer eternally in Hell. (Genesis 1:26,27; Matthew 25:31-46; Romans 3:23 and 6:23; 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10; Revelation 20:11-15 and 22:3-5.)
We believe that Salvation depends on accepting Christ as both Savior and Lord of your life. (John 1:12; Acts 2:38,39 and 8:26-40 and 16:25-34; 1 Peter 3:21,22.)
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Where did I say the bible was not true? Maybe I find another truth in it than you do, I started a thread about the truth of the bibe in the philosophy subforum, so we can very well talk about it there.
@Ella:
Thank you for the long answer. As for the statement of faith, I know what it is, I know where to find it. I study theology to become pastor, so I have a slight insight into the statement of faith and such in my church or similar churches (Lutheran and Reformed state churches) in Germany.
For my church, there is no written statement of faith. Back in 1818 they dicedid to have the holy scripture alone an nothing else, as every further creed leads to seperation, in many cases just because of misunderstandings. I study in Switzerland where the Reformed churches of the German speakig part of Switzerland also have no written statement of faith (though I have a slight feeling they overdo it because some think there was no rule at all, but well, another country, another culture).
There are still most churches in Germany that have written statements of faith, but I cannot think of one even mentioning scripture, leave alone one stating that scripture was infallible or God was its author. Those thoughts have as it seems to me only come through in times of enlightening or shortly before. Becuase there was no pope who told people what to do in protestantism some protestants declared the bible a paper pope and so those statements that have God as author of scripture and infabillity in a scientific way mentioned were written afterwards and had a big impact in the USA but not so much in Europe.
So what you say that faith is independent of culture is absolutely right. We all believe in Jesus Christ, His resurrection, Him having died on the cross for our sin. But there are also many things we disagree on, or some of us don't even think about too much. So even though I study theoogy I canot follow some issues that seem to be widely discussed in the USA but that are hardly interesting for people here...
I have one more question: How do you make a difference between studying the bible and using scientific methods on it? For me it seems to be both the same, as both involve reading it and thinking about it, and both can be done with or without praying for the Holy Spirit to help understanding. Of course these methods are manmade, but all other ways and categories to think in are manmade, even just reading as there is no story telling about God giving us the alphabet (didn't want to use "scripture" here to prevent misunderstaning:ROFL:). We wouln't be writing if man hadn't developed a way to "paint" language.
