Although, I am ordained as an Evangelist/Missionary, my views are very different than many women in ministry in that, I do not think God intended or has called women to be as PASTORS over a church. I'm not speaking about His call on women in ministry or the spreading of the gospel, because there are many examples of women in ministry in the Old and New Testament.
My view and reasoning, is based on what is in Ephesians chapter5, and God's setup of the original family in the beginning with Adam and Eve over the garden (home) which is like unto the church. He put man in charge of the garden, just as he put man in charge of the home.
On the other hand, I feel, if there is not a man to be in this position, and a woman minister is available, she is able to stand in until a man is there to take over. I base this on Genesis chapter 29, wherein Raechel is recorded as being the first woman shepherdess tending sheep, up UNTIL Jacon came , then she turned it over to him. Same principle...
God has an order of roles and postions for the man and the woman, and the unity of marriage is compared and symbolic to the church. And just as He never intended nor purposed in the beginning nor called or placed women to be heads of households, He never called or place a woman head of His church.
When the man is out of place, it is reason for the woman to take the lead and be head of her household, BUT, this was not in God's original painting of the family. When a man and woman are married they are one therefore, if the man is the pastor of a church, would it not go to reason that his wife is co-pastor along side of him? Therefore, she would be UNDER his covering yet, she still does not have authority OVER her husband OR the church. She is only CO-pastor with him.Just as she would be co-head of the household along side of her husband in the home.
What your thoughts about women who have the title of PASTOR over the church?
Do you think the SBC is wrong for their actions in this case?
Baptists to Cut Ties with Ga. Church Over Female Pastor
By Audrey Barrick|Christian Post Reporter
A more than 95-year-old church in Atlanta may be ousted from the Southern Baptist Convention over a woman pastor.
The Rev. Mimi Walker has been serving as co-pastor at Druid Hills Baptist Church with her husband, the Rev. Graham Walker, since 2003. But earlier this month, leaders of the Georgia Baptist Convention recommended cutting ties with the local congregation.
"It seems sad that they decided to go backwards in time," Mimi Walker told The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. "I'm not sure what the value is of trying to go back in time when women were held in subservience."
According to the Southern Baptist Convention's 2000 Baptist Faith and Message, the office of pastor is "limited to men as qualified by Scripture."
In keeping with the confession statement, the state convention voted on March 16 to declare Druid Hills "not a cooperating church."
It added, "The GBC has never been opposed to women serving in ministry positions other than pastor," according to Associated Baptist Press.
This is the second time the Georgia Baptist Convention has moved toward severing ties with a local church over a female pastor. Last year, the convention voted to end its relationship with First Baptist Church in Decatur over the congregation's decision to bring a woman to the pulpit. Julie Pennington-Russell became senior pastor of First Baptist in 2007.
"I�ve seen women in the ministry and worked with women in Presbyterian and Methodist churches," Walker told AJC. "They are moving forward in the process of keeping women involved in the ministry and moving toward equality.
"Our disagreement is related to how you interpret Scripture."
Amid ongoing conflicts over female pastors, some Southern Baptist leaders have made clarifications to what they believe.
Dr. Richard Land, president of The Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission, said the Baptist Faith and Message does not state that "women are to be subservient to men." They are of equal worth before God, he stated earlier.
And though women are gifted for service in the church, Land says the New Testament teaches that "a woman is not to usurp authority over the man" and thus women are not to serve as pastors.
The Georgia Baptist Convention, which has roughly 3,600 churches and is one of 41 state conventions throughout the country, will vote in November on the recommendation to sever ties.
I don't see anywhere in scripture where a woman can be a "co-Pastor". Your reasoning that a wife of a Pastor can possibly be a co-Pastor because she is "under his covering" is just simply not supported from scripture. Here is a study I did a while back on this subject.
Women Pastors. Is it biblical?
By Walter Diaz
There is much debate between Charismatic Churches and Conservative Churches concerning the issue of the role of women in the Church particularly when it comes to leadership positions such as Pastor/Bishops, Deacons and Elders. I believe that God�s word is absolutely clear on this issue. Let�s see what it says.
1Corinthians 14:34 the women must keep silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak out, but must place themselves in submission, as the law also says.
35 If they want to learn anything, they should ask their own husbands at home, for it is inappropriate for a woman to speak out in church.
36 Did God's word originate with you? Are you the only people it has reached?
37 If anyone thinks he is a prophet or a spiritual person, he must acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command.
But if anyone ignores this, he should be ignored. (ISV)
Above we see that Paul, considered to be the Apostle to the Gentiles, is addressing Christians and womens obligations within the Church environment. Paul was not prejudiced against women as some claim. I want you to notice what Paul says in verse 37. That the things he writes are the Lord�s Command. Not a suggestion and not just something for the current times he was writing in but are a commandment of Christ the Lord. This means for all time. It is not a cultural thing as some in the Charismatic churches claim. If that were true then we can just throw out the entire bible and say it was only for them way back then too. So the question is this. If a women is to keep silent while in Church, then how can she be a Pastor and preach? She can�t. But let�s continue.
1 Tim2: 9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing,
10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.
11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission.
And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
Notice here that Paul is being very clear on the issue of women not being allowed to teach or have authority over a man. It is charged by Charismatics that since Paul said �I� in verse 12 then he was just giving HIS opinion. Unfortunately for them that would be an improper understanding. Since Paul already said that it was the Lord�s Commandment for women to keep silent in church, this statement of his is in keeping with the consistency and harmony of scriptures. The passage is gender specific and the Greek fully supports this. Husband is gender specific. A woman cannot be a Husband as a man cannot be a wife either. Again Paul is being consistent in his teachings as he is writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and in this passage he is not giving his opinion. Paul only gave his opinion on a few things and when he did he was clear to say that it was NOT the Lord but he that was giving the statement. That is not the case here. Paul says a woman cannot teach a man or be in authority over a man. This means the Lord said it via the Holy Spirit.
This forbids a woman from being in any leadership position over a man within the Church. This obviously forbids a woman from preaching to a church or any church environment where men are present. Let�s continue with why this is so.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self�control.
The reason, is that women are more easily deceived as was the case in the Garden in Genesis. It was Adam who was first made and then Eve and then it was Eve who was deceived by Satan, NOT Adam.
1 Tim 2:1 � This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, {Literally overseer} he desires a good work.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober�minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach;
G1985 episkopos ep-is'-kop-os
From G1909 and G4649 (in the sense of G1983); a superintendent, that is, Christian officer in general charge of a (or the) church (literally or figuratively): - bishop, overseer.
3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous;
4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence
5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?);
6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil.
Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Again we see that the position of a Bishop which is the same as a Pastor, MUST be a Husband, which is gender specific, which is a MAN. Women are precluded from this position.
What about the term Pastors? It only appears once in the New Testament.
Ephesians 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,(NKJV)
Pastor: 4166 poimhn poimen poy-mane� of uncertain affinity; TDNT-6:485,901; n m
AV-shepherd 15, Shepherd 2, pastor 1; 18
1) a herdsman, esp. a shepherd
1a) in the parable, he to whose care and control others have committed themselves, and whose precepts they follow
2) metaph.
2a) the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church
2a1) of the overseers of the Christian assemblies
2a2) of kings and princes
8 � Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double�tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money,
9 holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience.
10 But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless.
11 Likewise their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things.
Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. (NKJV)
The position of Deacon is a gender specific however there are such positions as "deaconess". A Deacon and Deaconess are not positions of leadership of authority per se as they are more of a position of serving in subjection to Elders and Pastors.
Every passage we have seen and every definition prohibits women from teaching, preaching or being in any leadership position of authority over a man "within the Church". This is the consistent teaching of God�s Holy Word and when a woman goes against this teaching she is in direct disobedience to God�s Holy Word. She is in disobedience to God as well as any male Pastor who allows this in his church. God cannot and will not call a women into the ministry in any of the context listed above because to do so would make God a liar as He cannot go against His written word. There are many women who are in the ministry who will not accept this. Some have built large ministries and have a large following pulling in much tithes and offerings. Some have even purchased large estates worth millions of dollars and drive very expensive cars and wear expensive jewelry all from the money of the offerings of the church congregation! Are these women the model Christ commands for the other women to have as models?! A profound NO must be given. This shows that these women are refusing to be submissive to their husbands (if married) and to God himself. If a woman is unwilling to submit to God in this issue then she will not be willing to submit to her husband in marriage as Christ also commands that a wife must submit to her husband as unto the Lord in all things. All the verses listed above are very clear and fully supported by the Greek text. There are no scriptures that can counter the ones listed. To do so is to violate the established principles of Biblical interpretation called Hermeneutics.
Now let me say that God has used many women throughout the scriptures and still does today, but never have they been placed in leadership positions within the churches where they would be in authority over a man or in any position to teach Biblical matters in a church environment where men are present. It is very biblical however for the older women to teach the younger women, but not to teach men. Some within the Charismatic movement charge that there were women Prophets and those who preached the gospel. Yes that is true but preaching the Gospel in public or private places is different than being placed in a specific "Leadership" position within the Church. Additionally a "Prophet" or "Prophetess" is NOT a "leadership" position. God simply cannot go against His written Word. It is a rebellious spirit that goes against what God has ordained and God does not ordain women in specific leadership positions nor does He allow a woman to teach or preach God's Word while men are present in a Church environment.
Some Christians make the mistake of assuming that because a Church is growing in numbers, ministries and money that it must be ordained by God and it�s God�s direct blessings. If this is the standard that we measure as to whether or not God is blessing a particular church then we would have to conclude that God must be blessing the Pornography and gambling industry too or any pagan corporation for that matter. That is simply wrong thinking. It is carnal thinking!
God has firmly set in place the roles of men and women within the Church and in the family. The question is. Are we willing to be obedient to God�s Word or are we going to try to justify sinful disobedience to God?! As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord and obey!
I do not see how women are unabe to be pastor. And I doubt about the cited scripture being well understood.
As I see it, al depends on 1. cor 14:34. This verse tells women to be quiet in the congregation and ask their husbands at home if they want to know something.
So this is it what puzzles me: If they want to know something. This sounds to me, like Paul ist not thinking about teaching women, but about asking ones. It sounds to me rather that there were in Corinth some women who would during the sermon always ask back and interrupt the sermon that way, in an egoistic way, because all others would have to keep the said in mind until they were told everything. So Paul tells them to not interrupt the sermon and ask their husbands afterwards about it.
I feel supported by Paul stating in 1. Tim 2 that it was only his own idea and not the Lord's. If 1. Cor 14:34 would mean for women not to teach, Paul would be lying in 1. Tim 2 saying that it was only his idea and not the Lord's command. Do I miss something.
Adding to this I remember Galatians to have verses like there was neiter man nor woman in Christ.
The last point, the bishop: For some reason we cannot tell today Paul starts by "If a man desires to be bishop", so it is no wonder he speaks of "husbands" afterwards and not "wives", men cannot be wives for all I can tell.
So I am sorry to say I do not agree, but I just do not see all those verses having the put up meaning, as I said, this would render Paul a lyer, but maybe I'm missing some point.
After all we have to take in mind: Paul was certainly living in a time where women were granted less rights than they had by society, so Paul being personally maybe more conservative here than the Lord would be makes sense to me. But again, maybe I am missing a point.
In the Baptist Church I attend, the Pastor's wife is Co-Pastor with him. It is stated that way on all bulletins, in our contract with them, etc..
We are a member of the SBC and have never been challenged on this. We were threatened with a challenge because we teach the spiritual gifts, but our missions director showed them that the gifts were always a part of SBC doctrine from the very first writing they put out. It has been in every year's printing of bylaws ever since.
There were some surprised Pastors there that day.LOL. Imissed it,but have heard the stories.
But most of the churches are accepting the Pastor and wife as a team. That seems to me to be as it should be. Our pastor's wife is not good at giving sermons,so this usually falls to me. That does not detract from her authority.
A pastor is only to be the husband to one wife, so that eliminates may from preaching if they are divorced or married a second or third time. Woman are to be silent in the church, period. My understanding is they are to teach younger women and children.
You said: "I do not see how women are unabe to be pastor. And I doubt about the cited scripture being well understood.
WALTER: Why would you say that? The scriptures clearly make it a GENDER SPECIFIC position. "the husband of one wife". A woman cannot be a husband. Additionally it also states that a woman is not to teach or usurp authority over the man. Again Paul establishes the Gender specific roles.
ABEDJAU: As I see it, al depends on 1. cor 14:34. This verse tells women to be quiet in the congregation and ask their husbands at home if they want to know something.
WALTER: I have to disagree in that the position of a Pastor, Elder, Bishop, is not dependent upon 1 Cor 14:34 as the qualifications for those positions are Gender specific confirmed in 1 Tim 2:1-2. 1 Cor simply harmonizes and gives further instruction of what a woman is not permitted to do in the church environment.
ABEDJAU: So this is it what puzzles me: If they want to know something. This sounds to me, like Paul ist not thinking about teaching women, but about asking ones. It sounds to me rather that there were in Corinth some women who would during the sermon always ask back and interrupt the sermon that way, in an egoistic way, because all others would have to keep the said in mind until they were told everything. So Paul tells them to not interrupt the sermon and ask their husbands afterwards about it.
WALTER: You are correct in that services were not to be interrupted by a woman. During services men would get up and ask questions and also give a prophesy or a Psalm, etc. Women were not permitted to do this.
ABEDJAU: I feel supported by Paul stating in 1. Tim 2 that it was only his own idea and not the Lord's. If 1. Cor 14:34 would mean for women not to teach, Paul would be lying in 1. Tim 2 saying that it was only his idea and not the Lord's command. Do I miss something.
WALTER: I have to disagree with you here because Paul was not giving his "opinion". There are only a couple of times Paul ever made a statement in that he was expressing his own opinion and not of the Lord's and he was very clear in those times that that was what he was doing. This is not one of those times. An example of his own opinions is this one: "1Cor 7:12 But to the rest I, not the Lord,...." He did not do this in 1 Tim2 nor 1 Cor 14, so there is no contradiction and Paul was not lying. Everything Paul stated he made it clear that those things were "commandments of the Lord". It was only in tow places where he gave his personal opinion or made a concession and none of those exceptions had to do with leadership positions.
ABEDJAU: Adding to this I remember Galatians to have verses like there was neiter man nor woman in Christ.
WALTER: This has nothing to do with leadership positions in the churches. To try and take this passage which is dealing with the "spiritual relationship" with Christ is not a good defense for women being able to be Pastors. After all that would then be a direct contradiction in scripture and from Paul since it was Paul who wrote on both issues.
ABEDJAU: The last point, the bishop: For some reason we cannot tell today Paul starts by "If a man desires to be bishop", so it is no wonder he speaks of "husbands" afterwards and not "wives", men cannot be wives for all I can tell.
WALTER: I think you are shooting yourself in the foot here. Yes, men cannot be wives and wives cannot be men therefore since a Bishop, Elder and Pastor are required by the all inspired Word of God to be HUSBANDS, precludes any possibility of a woman holding those positions without being in direct disobedience to God.
ABEDJAU: So I am sorry to say I do not agree, but I just do not see all those verses having the put up meaning, as I said, this would render Paul a lyer, but maybe I'm missing some point.
WALTER: Yes you are missing some critical points and with all due respect, you have some faulty reasoning.
ABEDJAU: After all we have to take in mind: Paul was certainly living in a time where women were granted less rights than they had by society, so Paul being personally maybe more conservative here than the Lord would be makes sense to me. But again, maybe I am missing a point.
WALTER: Yes you are missing the point. The "times" Paul lived in are not relevant to God's commands as neither are these times any different regarding God's commands. The New Testament instructions written back then are also for today regardless of "womens rights". Christians are to go by a different standard than the "world's standard". Are standard is Christ's commands.
1 Cor 14: 37 If anyone thinks he is a prophet or a spiritual person, he must acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command.
38 But if anyone ignores this, he should be ignored. (ISV)
You said: For those That believe it is not right for a woman to pastor, I have a couple questions.
Did the Head of the church, The lord Jesus tell you that?
Do you recognize the anointing?
WALTER: Jesus most certainly told us this through his written word which He can never contradict or change. That would make Christ a liar. Women who are pastors are in direct disobedience to GOD, to Christ Jesus, to His written word. Any woman who says she is "annointed" of or called into the ministry to be a Pastor, Elder or Bishop, (which are all the same thing) by God or Jesus is a liar and the truth is not in her.
So Phillip, please demonstrate with clear scripture where it says that a woman is able to hold these specific leadership positions in the churches. Show us how a woman is able to be a "Husband of one wife".
1 Cor 14:34 37 If anyone thinks he is a prophet or a spiritual person, he must acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command.
38 But if anyone ignores this, he should be ignored. (ISV)
