In dealing with the issue of a Christian being able to "Forfeit" their salvation is made abundantly clear throughout the New Testament. So let's also deal with a particular passage which I believe demonstrates this concept as well.
The Seven letters of Revelation were written to Seven literal Christian Churches, not "church ages". Jesus had good things to say about these churches and bad things to say as well. Each one irregardless of their praise or rebuke were given a warning. Each one was told of the need to "Overcome" if they expected to inherit various things including eternal life. These letters were written to Christians, real Christians, Born Again Believers.
Rev 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the Tree of Life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
What happens if one does not "Overcome"? They don't get to eat from the "Tree of Life".
Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
What happens to those who do not overcome? They will be hurt by the Second Death.
Rev 2:17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give to him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knows except he who receives it .
What happens to those who do not overcome? They don't get to eat of the "Hidden Manna".
Rev 2:26 And he who overcomes and keeps My works to the end, to him I will give power over the nations.
What happens to those who do not overcome? They do not receive power over the Nations.
****Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not BLOT OUT HIS NAME FROM the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.****
What happens to those who do not overcome? Their names are blotted out from the Book of Life! They Forfeited their salvation!
Rev 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
What happens to those who do not overcome? They do not become a new pillar, they do not get God's name written on them nor Jesus' new name?
Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
What happens to those who do not overcome? They do not get to sit down with Jesus on His Throne!
Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. NKJV
Here we see Jesus making a very clear statement that it is entirely possible to remove someone from the Book of Life. To be in the Book of Life one must first be a true believer and that is obvious or else they would not be in the Book of Life to begin with. So if Jesus is warning CHRISTIANS of this very real possibility then the idea of a Christian "Forfeiting" their salvation, committing Apostasy is no doubt very real.
The False Teachings of "Once Saved Always Saved" and "Calvinism" flies in the face of these Scriptures, among others.
Sorry brother, but these verses are speaking of faith in Christ and worship of Him.
We know for certain that the Antichrist comes first, we also know that he will stand in the temple and claim to be God. These verse are nothing more than a warning to those who are on the fence, not to be deceived. Not only them, but many believers. In that way, you and I agree. Those that worship the wrong christ, Antichrist, will be blotted out. They have been warned repeatedly. There will be no more chances if they fall for that one.
Jesus said, NOTHING can take them from my hand, He did not say nothing except that person's free will.
LEON: Sorry brother, but these verses are speaking of faith in Christ and worship of Him.
We know for certain that the Antichrist comes first, we also know that he will stand in the temple and claim to be God. These verse are nothing more than a warning to those who are on the fence, not to be deceived. Not only them, but many believers. In that way, you and I agree. Those that worship the wrong christ, Antichrist, will be blotted out. They have been warned repeatedly. There will be no more chances if they fall for that one.
WALTER:I do not agree with you about the purpose of these warnings concerning the Anti-Christ as no mention of him is contained in the text or context. It is addressing CONTINUED Faith in Christ and the dire consequences of not continuing in Christ. To get into the book of life one must be a true believer, not someone on the fence. You are either a Christian or you are not. There is no in between. These warnings are written to Christians not people who are on the fence. I do not believe you could make any such case from the grammar.
Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
It is very clear that Jesus is giving a clear warning of the very real possibility of a Christian being removed from the Book of Life.
Why would Jesus warn Christians of being removed from the Book of Life unless they could?
How does someone "overcome"? By their continued Faith in Christ.
Mat 24:12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of [THE] MANY will grow cold.
Mat 24:13 But he who ENDURES TO THE END....shall be saved.
John15: 6 IF...anyone does not abide [continue] in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Salvation is conditional upon our "Continuing IN Christ". The terminology ... "IN ME" proves that this person is "IN CHRIST", they are saved. But if they do not "continue" in Christ then they are condemned.
1Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also YE ARE SAVED,.... IF.... ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.NKJV
We as Christians are saved..."IF we keep in memory the Gospel message". In other words our salvation is conditional upon our continued Faith in Christ. There is no escaping the grammar here.
Col 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has RECONCILED [past tense]
22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight�
23 IF indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Continuing in the Faith is our only hope of Salvation.
Now let me address what you quoted.
LEON: Jesus said, NOTHING can take them from my hand, He did not say nothing except that person's free will.
The actual quote comes from John. Let's examine the grammar here.
John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;
What is the assumption of the text as to why they shall never perish? Same as John 15. Because it is assumed they are "CONTINUING" to follow Christ.
"neither shall ANYONE [third person] snatch them out of My hand."
29 My Father, who has given THEM to Me, is greater than all; and NO ONE [third person] is able to snatch THEM out of My Father's hand."
The grammar here is often overlooked by OSAS believers and Calvinists. Notice the THIRD person pronouns. It is true that no outside force, no THIRD person can force YOU away from Christ. But the grammatical hermeneutic does not allow you to include FIRST PERSON singular "YOU" or plural into the Third Person pronouns "ANYONE" and "NO ONE". That would be a gross violation of basic grammar. This means that while a third person cannot snatch you away from Christ, it does not preclude your ability to walk away from Christ. Let me give you an analogy, not the best but it will make the point.
You are sitting in a Military Tank traveling on a narrow road heading towards a specific destination. Along the way there are many small roads that the Tank cannot go on. To go down these other roads you have to get out of the Tank. People outside the tank are screaming at you, mocking you for your faith and throwing rocks and then on those other paths there are hot looking girls outside tempting you to come down their path and other paths have success and others have wealth. All the temptations of man are on various paths. However they have no physical ability to force you out of your cozy safe tank. You can keep on to your destination or you can stop the Tank and choose to walk down another path and there is nothing and no one to stop you from opening the hatch and climbing out of the tank of your own free will. It is your choice to "continue" in the Tank or not to. It is your choice to abide in the vine or not to. Your choice to continue IN Christ or not to.
Heb 3:12-14
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of UNBELIEF,...... IN DEPARTING FROM the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, *** IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (KJV)
1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; KJV
Please notice the "definite article" "THE"used here. "THE" preceding "Faith" meaning "THE FAITH" demonstrates a specific faith and that is the True Christian Faith. To depart FROM "the faith" you have to have The Faith to begin with and not some mental ascent. If it was just a mental ascent and not a heart conversion here then it makes no sense because a person who only has a mere mental ascent does NOT have the Faith anyway. You simply cannot fall away from a Faith you do not really have.
If you look back over the verse you used, my scenario fits perfectly. Including the falling away you are so fond of mentioning.
What would make a true Christian worship the antichrist? He thinks he is the real deal.
How many are conditioned to think they are going to be Raptured before the Antichrist comes. They don't understand what will happen because they don't think it will affect them. The Antichrist comes in a huge show of miracles and wonders. He tells everyone that he is Jesus and has come to rapture them. Telling them to go get their families and he will give them all one last chance.
They will see the miracles and signs. They will feel the supernatural presence, and they will believe. They lose their faith by worshiping him. Since they have been warned, they are doomed.
You know you will never convince me that a true Christian will never willfully turn away. I can't even imagine it happening. The only reason it happens then is deception. Otherwise, God's word is His word. He promised me that no one could take me from His hand. He did not say no one but me, He said no one.
I have to agree with you ( was that a "Thunder Clap?"). We can lose Our Salvation if we become lazy and are not Vigilant and Watchful. Satan uses are Brains...our Minds...our Intellect, to deceive us. If we choose to "play" both sides of the road -- thinking we cannot lose Our Salvation -- we are exposing ourselves to Danger and Death.
Even The Apostle Paul says that he waits "fearfully" for Heaven.
Leon,
Jesus Himself had doubt (on The Cross He cried "Father, why have you abandoned Me?"). Being a Devote Christian does not mean that given extreme circumstances you will turn away from your faith.
We all need to be vigilant...so a not to be Deceived. God does everything but get down on His knees and beg us to Repent and do as he says, yet even as Powerful as God Is...He gives us the ability to block HIM...to say no to HIM. This is how we Lose Our Salvation...by turning away from God.
A long as we are In His Palm...no one can "Snatch Us". If we "leave" the safety of His Light...we expose ourself to Danger.
Read what The Early Church had to say about Sanctifying Grace. It is very revealing!
Good Conversations...Very Edifying...very Strengthing!
I Love you Guys! You are wonderful...strong...Brothers!
i wondered why I was getting an English lesson in stead of lessons in the Greek. Now I know. Let's do this right.
Joh 10:29 MyG3450 Father,G3962 whichG3739 gaveG1325 them me,G3427 isG2076 greaterG3187 than all;G3956 andG2532 noG3762 man is ableG1410 to pluckG726 them out ofG1537 myG3450 Father'sG3962 hand.G5495
G3762
οὐδείς
oudeis
oo-dice'
Including the feminine οὐδεμία oudemia
oo-dem-ee'-ah and the neuter οὐδέν ouden oo-den'
From G3761 and G1520; not even one (man, woman or thing), that is, none, nobody, nothing: - any (man), aught, man, neither any (thing), never (man), no (man), none (+ of these things), not (any, at all, -thing), nought.
What you just saw was aperfect example of interpretation. The original Greek text says one thing that can not be taken out of context, but the English translation could mean several different things.
You are doing your normal thing here, you come in, tell us all we are wrong and don't believe/understand the bible, but you cannot or will not try to prove your point. It is hard to argue with someone who seems to have no other opinion than that you are wrong.
If you would like for me to discuss it with you, please offer scripture to back up what you are saying. But please be ready to defend your view as Walter and I, among others, do when we do the same. LOL. Even these wild debates have rules.
