Ok! Here's something I'd like to talk about some more...for a couple reasons. First reason! It's what I believe. Second reason! I would like it tested by the bible warriors on here. This is the bible battleground after all, why not put my beliefs to the test? I could be wrong, and if I am I'd really like to know.
Here's the scriptures I believe support my belief that when people die, they are in an unconscious state until the second coming of Christ. I honestly don't know absolutely, but it seems like the weight of scripture at least supports an unconscious state after death until the second return of Christ. There are some in heaven, like Enoch, Elijah, and Moses are the only ones I know of for sure. There were many resurrected at the resurrection of Jesus. But I believe as a whole...most of God's followers and all the wicked are resting in the grave until the judgment. So if its ok, I'd like to see the scriptures that contradict my views and support your views...because honestly, I could just be searching the bible for what I want to see.
*1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
* Genesis 2:7. "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being." Body (form) + Breath of life/God (n�phach /puff) = a living being, or Soul (Hebrew נפש nephesh[8])
* Genesis 3:19. "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou returnest unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken; for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."
* Genesis 18:27-28. "27And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD, which am but dust and ashes: "
* 2 Samuel 7:12 "And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom."
* Job 3:17. "There [the grave] the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest."
* 1 Kings 2:10. "10So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David."
* 1 Kings 11:21. "21And when Hadad heard in Egypt that David slept with his fathers,"
* 1 Kings 11:43. "43And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father:"
* 1 Kings 14:20. "20And the days which Jeroboam reigned were two and twenty years: and he slept with his fathers"
* 1 Kings 14:31. "31And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David."
* 1 Kings 15:8. "8And Abijam slept with his fathers; and they buried him in the city of David:"
* 1 Kings 15:24. "24And Asa slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father:"
* 1 Kings 16:6. "6So Baasha slept with his fathers, and was buried in Tirzah:"
* 1 Kings 16:28. "28So Omri slept with his fathers, and was buried in Samaria:"
* 1 Kings 22:40. "40So Ahab slept with his fathers;"
* 1 Kings 22:50. "50And Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father:"
* 2 Kings 8:24. "24And Joram slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David:"
* 2 Kings 10:35. "35And Jehu slept with his fathers: and they buried him in Samaria."
* 2 Kings 13:9. "9And Jehoahaz slept with his fathers; and they buried him in Samaria:"
* 2 Kings 14:22. "22He built Elath, and restored it to Judah, after that the king slept with his fathers."
* 2 Kings 14:29. "29And Jeroboam slept with his fathers, even with the kings of Israel;"
* 2 Kings 15:7. "7So Azariah slept with his fathers; and they buried him with his fathers in the city of David:"
* 2 Kings 15:22. "22And Menahem slept with his fathers;"
* Job 4:17. "17Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?"
* Job 7:21 "And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be."
* Job 7:10. "10He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more."
* Job 14:10-12. "10But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? 11As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: 12So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep."
* Job 19:25-28. "25For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me."
* Job 34:14-16. "14If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; 15All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust."
* Psalms 6:5. "For in death there is no remembrance of thee:in the grave who shall give thee thanks?"
* Psalm 13:3 "Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;"
* Psalm 90:5 "You sweep men away in the sleep of death; they are like the new grass of the morning-"
* Psalms 146:3-4. "Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whome there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."
* Ecclesiastes 3:19-20. "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust and all turn to dust again."
* Ecclesiastes 9:4-6,10. "For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing [....] Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished [...] Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."
* Isaiah 14:18 "All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, everyone in his own house."
* Isaiah 26:19. "19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead."
* Ezekiel 18:20."The soul that sinneth, it shall die."
* Daniel 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
* Daniel 12:13 "But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days."
* Matthew 9:24-27. "24He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn. 25But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose. "
* Matthew 16:27. "27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"
* Matthew 27:51-55. "51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, "
* Luke 8:52, 53 "Meanwhile, all the people were wailing and mourning for her. 'Stop wailing,' Jesus said. 'She is not dead but asleep.' They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead."
* John 3:5, 6 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
* John 3:13 "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven."
* John 5:28-30. "28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
* John 6:39. "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."
* John 6:40. "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
* John 6:44. "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
* John 6:54. "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
* John 12:48. "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."
* John 11:11-14. "These things said he [Jesus]: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead."
* John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also."
* John 20:17. "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."
* Acts 2:29. "29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."
* Acts 2:34 "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand".
* Acts 7:59-62. "59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep."
* Acts 13:36 "For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption."
* 1 Corinthians 15:16-50 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished [....] If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we die. [�] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: [....] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
* 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52 "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed�in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."
* 2 Corinthians 4:7-5:4 "For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake [....] Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you [....] For which cause we faint not [...] While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life."
* James 2:26. "26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
* Ephesians 5:14 "...for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: 'Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.'"
* 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first".
* Hebrews 9:27. "27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"
* 1 Timothy 6:16 "who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen."
* 2 Timothy 4:7-8. " 7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."
* 2 Peter 3:4 "[...]for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation."
dear hitman,,, i believe our spirit will be with JESUS when we die..
luke 23:42-44 42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."
43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
44 Now it was about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. 45 Then the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was torn in two. 46 And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit." Having said this, He breathed His last.
And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
�slept with his fathers� and �go to thy fathers� is a reference to burial. The Jewish burial practice of the 1st and 2nd Temple periods: During the 1st Temple period the Jews took their dead into the sepulcher (tomb) and placed the body on a table. Spices and oils were placed over the body and wrapped. A year and a day later the family would return. All that would be left were the bones which were basically tossed under the table (And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace). In the 2nd Temple period the bones were placed in a box. Sometimes family members were placed into the same box as family who had already passed on. It was a literal.
Hebrews 11:5 (KJV)
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
2 Cor. 5:8 (KJV)
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
1 Thes. 4:14-18 (KJV)
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Those who have died, are literally in spirit with Jesus Christ. They will return with Christ (their human bodies will be translated) and we will then be translated and meet them in the air.
lol, ok guys....but don't you think it's a little odd that there's only two verses showing up here? One that doesn't even truly support the belief that people go right to heaven when they die, and another that if you take the commas out(there was no punctuation in the Greek...ask Walter:goofball:) it says something completely different? "I say unto you today...you will be with me in paradise"?
John 5:28-30. "28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are :stop:in the graves shall hear his voice:stop:, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
I could be wrong...but it doesn't make any sense to me that God would be handing out damnation before judgment day...and that verse makes it sound like Jesus is saying people get their reward when He comes again. And John 14 says that Jesus is going to prepare a place for us...and He doesn't "receive us unto Himself" until He comes again.
John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also."
Also, I don't think "sleep/slept" counts as "burial"...Jesus refers to sleep, and then clarifies that He's talking about "death", and the girl wasn't buried either.
John 11:11-14. "These things said he [Jesus]: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may :stop:awake him out of sleep:stop:. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead."
Luke 8:52, 53 "Meanwhile, all the people were wailing and mourning for her. 'Stop wailing,' Jesus said. 'She is not dead but asleep.' They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead."
Anyway....I'm glad more people posted this time! Thanks guys! This is what I've always been taught, so it's interesting to hear what other people believe.
When I get back later I will respond with scriptures that show the souls in heaven awaiting to be avenged. In fact just do a bible search if you have a bible program. The verse I am referring to is in Revelation.
Also consider the terminology of what is means to be "asleep" or "sleeping".
Also look at the story of the rich man in hell talking with Lazarus asking Lazarus to warn his family of the horror of hell. If he is "asleep" then how is he speaking with Lazarus?
How are the saints in heaven who are waiting for the Resurrection, speaking if they are asleep?
There are those who believe in "soul sleep" based on the scriptures use of the word sleep. However after looking this up in Matthew Henry's Commentary, Jameson Faucet and Brown and Vines dictionary as well as other reference books I think it is fair to say thet sleep was a word used for the good man who was dead. Death was a word reserved for those who were evil men. It was common in the Jewish vernacular to refer to a dead person as fallen asleep. There was a debate about the resurrection between the Pharisees ans Sadducees. The Sadducees did not believe in resurrection. However, they al agreed that sleep was for the body but not for the soul. The soul went up to heaven or down to Sheol. These verses are form the Jewish Publication Bible and might be helpful:
Gen 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing - for she died - that she called his name Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin.
Job 27:8 For what is the hope of the godless, though he get him gain, when God taketh away his soul?
Psa 86:13 For great is Thy mercy toward me; and Thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest nether-world.
Psa 116:8 For thou hast delivered my soul from death, mine eyes from tears, and my feet from stumbling.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are Mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is Mine; the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
Those are good questions Walter, and the only answer for them is that it must be figurative. When God says that a martyrs blood is "crying out" is He being literal? While your are good, I have to say that I think mine are a little deeper...:laugh:but I would think that wouldn't I? Anyway...we seem to have conflicting views, yes? So...I will try to give my view points on your questions if you wouldn't mind taking a look at mine.
Here we go.
Parable of the rich man and lazarus. If we're supposed to take this parable literally to the core...then does this mean you think we can see hell from heaven? Watch people being tormented? I don't think so...so I think it's figurative. How else would you reconcile it with the verse "the dead know nothing"? And anyway, according to your belief of a eternal hell being "separation from God", then how is this man talking to God? There's some inconsistencies in the parable if it's completely literal.
As far as the souls under the alter thing, what does the bible classify as a soul? Is it your "spirit"? I'm pretty sure the bible teaches that a "soul" is a combination of a body and the breath of life. Anyway...I really hate to do what I hate people doing to me...and that is washing something away in figuratives...so I won't. There are souls in heaven. Maybe these souls are the first fruits that Jesus resurrected when He rose from the dead. But anyway...once again...if these "souls" are people that have died, then they also fall under "the dead know nothing" and they would not be crying out to be avenged.
So...that was a horrible job of trying to explain those texts. Let's see what you can do with mine.
John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, ye may be also."
What is Jesus saying here? He's talking to His apostles, so does this mean that His apostles won't go to heaven when they die? They have to wait until the second coming?
Job 14:10-12. "10But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? 11As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: 12So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep."
Job 19:25-28. "25For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me."
Job is saying He will die and will not see God until the "latter day", right?
Psalms 6:5. "For in death there is no remembrance of thee:in the grave who shall give thee thanks?"
People in the grave don't know anything, right?
Psalms 146:3-4. "Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whome there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."
Can't really speak if you can't think, lol...well I guess I do that sometimes:laugh:.
Ecclesiastes 9:4-6,10. "For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing [....] Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished [...] Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."
Daniel 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
Daniel 12:13 "But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days."
Matthew 16:27. "27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"
Are we immortal like God? Isn't God the only one with true immortality? Do we already have eternal life or do we receive our reward at the second coming? Are evil souls immortal? Doesn't that mean we all get the same reward? Doesn't seem right...
John 5:28-30. "28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
Doesn't this verse mean the dead are waiting in the graves until they hear the voice of God?
John 6:40. "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:54. "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
Acts 2:29. "29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."
Acts 2:34 "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand".
David, a man after God's own heart, is not in heaven?
Ephesians 5:14 "...for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: 'Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.'"
1 Timothy 6:16 "who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen."
Do we have immortal souls?
Anyway...sorry for all the questions...but I kinda posted more verses, so it's only fair.:laugh: Just seems like people skipped all those verses and grabbed "one" that "explains them all away". I don't think it's that easy folks. I guess my biggest question is...if our reward is eternal life...do we receive it when we die or when Jesus comes back? The bible seems to say that we receive it at the second coming, not when we "die". Don't you think the "immortal soul" thing is a little pagan? Doesn't that mean that every human...saved and unsaved...already has eternal life? The same reward? Before Jesus Returns?
