Is everything we do physically a Work of the Flesh?
Posted : 25 Jan, 2010 02:08 PM
Bro. Walter,
An excellent question my friend. Let me give you the first thing that came to mind when I read this question.
Since we know that there is nothing good in us and that we could never live up to God's standard of perfection, that must mean that we are incapable of doing good on our own.
Therefore, if we are producing good works, or displaying the fruits worthy of repentance, it must be Christ in us doing the works. That is why they are called fruits of the Spirit, not fruits of good works.
Is everything we do physically a Work of the Flesh?
Posted : 25 Jan, 2010 02:36 PM
Hi Leon,
Then how do you explain unsaved people doing good deeds since they do not have the Holy Spirit? There are countless examples of unsaved people doing good things for others even giving their lives to save others and yet they are without the Holy Spirit.
Let's try this. Can you show me an example in scripture where we do something in our physical body as an unsaved person that is directly linked to a spiritual outcome?
Is everything we do physically a Work of the Flesh?
Posted : 25 Jan, 2010 04:44 PM
I think it is possible for an unsaved person to do something that is used for the better of God's plan. Not sure if that's what you mean Walter, but I think that's what you're saying...Right?? However right now I can think of any scriptual references for this concept though...
Is everything we do physically a Work of the Flesh?
Posted : 25 Jan, 2010 04:46 PM
Walter,
You and I always seem to end back up at this same Calvinistic vs Armenian view. I won't argue that part of this with you again, as we have learned it is fruitless, but I think I can make this point without getting into all that.
You said:
Then how do you explain unsaved people doing good deeds since they do not have the Holy Spirit? There are countless examples of unsaved people doing good things for others even giving their lives to save others and yet they are without the Holy Spirit.
I say:
We have no idea if those works were good according to God's standard or not. I submit that the reason they do these things is wrong. I know before I was saved, my whole community thought I was a great guy, and I was.....by their standards. By God's standard I was so far lacking that it is a wonder He allowed me to continue on. Every good deed I did was for pride or recognition, seldom would you see me do something out of the kindness of my heart.
I guess my point is, it is fine to help others, but without the right reasons, it isn't good enough for God. You are just one more Pharisee.
As for examples of people doing things with Spiritual results; what about when Balaam opened his mouth to curse Israel, but blessed them instead? What about when Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery in Egypt? What about Samson being captured and turning it into a great victory? There are three examples off the top of my head, I am sure there are plenty more if you want.
Is everything we do physically a Work of the Flesh?
Posted : 25 Jan, 2010 05:42 PM
Hi Leon,
Suppose an unsaved Father willingly sacrifices his life to save his child or gives his kidney to save a friend, is that not a good thing and unselfish? Do you honestly think that God would look upon that as anything less than a good deed?
This is not intended to be an Arminian / Calvinism debate per se unless of course YOU want to go down that path. LOL This issue is more directed towards the influence of Gnostic teachings into Christianity.
Let me get to the point. Nah on second thought...LOL I"ll wait.
Oh ok.. Is there any scripture that clearly shows that something we do physically is linked towards our salvation?
Is everything we do physically a Work of the Flesh?
Posted : 25 Jan, 2010 05:44 PM
Hi Leon,
Suppose an unsaved Father willingly sacrifices his life to save his child or gives his kidney to save a friend, is that not a good thing and unselfish? Do you honestly think that God would look upon that as anything less than a good deed?
This is not intended to be an Arminian / Calvinism debate per se unless of course YOU want to go down that path. LOL This issue is more directed towards the influence of Gnostic teachings into Christianity.
Let me get to the point. Nah on second thought...LOL I"ll wait.
Oh ok.. Is there any scripture that clearly shows that something we do physically is linked towards our salvation?
Is everything we do physically a Work of the Flesh?
Posted : 25 Jan, 2010 05:58 PM
Hi Storm,
I just replied to Leon which should clear as to what I am after. Think of scriptures that show that we do something physically that is directly linked to our salvation.
Is everything we do physically a Work of the Flesh?
Posted : 25 Jan, 2010 07:55 PM
Ahhhhhhhh,
Now I get you. The physical act? No. Never can the physical act alone contribute to our salvation.
I know many will think, wait a minute, what about repenting? That is a physical act. But then you get back into the same old question of WHY did you repent? Was it out of love? Fear?Why? The answer is important because we have to be lead by the Holy Spirit to know we are saved. If we do these things at His urging, then we are saved, on our own...we may still need some time on our knees. Anyway, belief and repentance both begin mentally.
As for the predestination vs. free will debate.....I think we should save it for another day. After all, we entertained everyone on this site for several months last year, it,s there turn to do the typing. LOL. A couple of times I was almost ready to agree with you just to put an end to it. LOL. You are a worthy adversary, I will give you that.
Wait a minute, I have a new one for you that I bet you have never heard before. I will try to get it written out and posted before you get up tomorrow. It comes from Arnold Murray of Shepherd's Chapel. It is his take on our age old battle.
Is everything we do physically a Work of the Flesh?
Posted : 26 Jan, 2010 11:50 AM
Hi Leon,
You are almost there. You are right that any physical act ALONE does not contribute to our salvation. But what acts that we do are linked and occur PRIOR to our Salvation?
What physical acts that we do LEAD towards our salvation?
