One of the many incorrect teachings concerning Jesus' return is found in this passage. Many people forget to consider the GRAMMAR. Let's examine this.
Mat 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. NKJV
First we have to look at the time periods Jesus was referring to. Jesus said of that DAY and HOUR. Those are very specific time periods. They do not include week or month or year. So we cannot expand upon what Jesus said and include time periods HE Himself did not give us.
But what is more critical is what Jesus said... "no one KNOWS".
The word "knows" is a PRESENT TENSE word, NOT a FUTURE tense. Jesus did not say that no one would ever know, only that no one at the time He said this KNEW. One of the most important things we must do in studying scriptures is to pay careful attention to Grammar. if we miss the grammar we can misinterpret it very badly and end up believing or teaching something completely false.
Additionally in scriptures we do have a prophesy in Daniel that tells us when Jesus will return based upon a particular prophesy coming to pass. When that occurs we have exactly 3.5 years, based upon a Hebrew calender of course.
If jesus intended this to me a complete mystery then why in His infinite wisdom did He give us signs to WATCH for HIS Coming?
Remember His coming as a thief is concerning His POST-Tribulational coming, not some any moment false Rapture before that.
Consider the Grammar. Even in that verse it specifically says..."hour". An hour is not any ole time period we can fix to it beyond it's specific meaning. An hour is an hour, not a day or week or month or year.
Regarding the word "KNOWS" ... it is in present tense not future tense. The problem is that many times people fail to remember how important grammar is. An entire doctrine can change over one word being present, past or future tense. And in Greek it is even much more precise.
Remember the question the Disciples asked Jesus?
Mat 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
Then Jesus gave them a very detailed description as to what things they needed to pay attention to. If Jesus did not want anyone to know when He was going to return then He would not of answered their questions about His return and the end of the age.
Jesus gave us specific signs to watch for so that we who are paying attention, will know when He is returning. He even told us to pay close attention to a prophesy dealing with the "Abomination of Desolation" in Daniel.
Mat 24:15 "Therefore ...WHEN YOU SEE... the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),
Let me stop right here for a moment and draw your attention to Jesus' words. "WHEN YOU SEE". (CAPS mine) Mat 24 is Church doctrine. This means it applies to us today. What was it that Jesus expects Christians to see? The Abomination of Desolation. When does that occur? At the midpoint of the 7 year period which begins what some call the Great Tribulation. Let's continue.
16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.
18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.
Why these warnings?
Because you cannot survive in the city. You cannot hunt game or grow crops for food. You can be easily captured and put to death. Or you can take the Mark of the Beast. In other words Jesus is saying to get the heck out of Dodge quickly. He gave us these signs so that those who are wise enough will heed His warning. Let's continue.
Dan 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."
Dan 11:31 And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.
Dan 12:11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Here we see that after a specific prophesy occurs, we will know exactly how long there is left to go before Christ returns.
Consider Paul was telling US to WATCH for "The Day of the Lord". To watch for that day requires us to be here in order to watch for it.
1Thess 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. NKJV
Pauls answer to this question was shorter and more directly to the point;
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
If you have been taught the truth, you are not one of those that group. You will know that rapture theory is Satan's way of stealing millions of God's children.All with one small deception.
Read Ezekiel 13:18-end. God saying He is against those who teach His children to fly to save their souls. To me, it just doesn't sound like something my God would do.
"1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
If you have been taught the truth, you are not one of those that group. You will know that rapture theory is Satan's way of stealing millions of God's children.All with one small deception."
So what are you saying here, Leon? That those who believe in pretrib are in darkness and satan has stolen us from God?
"Consider the Grammar. Even in that verse it specifically says..."hour". An hour is not any ole time period we can fix to it beyond it's specific meaning. An hour is an hour, not a day or week or month or year."
Agreed.
"Regarding the word "KNOWS" ... it is in present tense not future tense. The problem is that many times people fail to remember how important grammar is. An entire doctrine can change over one word being present, past or future tense. And in Greek it is even much more precise."
Just because the word KNOWS is in the present tense does not mean you can turn it into the future tense to make it say what you want in order to line it with your view. According to Strong's, the word 'knoweth' is in the perfect tense with an indicative mood, meaning it is a simple statement of fact. Since your reference and mine can't agree with each other, shouldn't we just take Jesus' words that 'no man knows', as a simple statement of fact?
"Remember the question the Disciples asked Jesus?
Mat 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
Then Jesus gave them a very detailed description as to what things they needed to pay attention to. If Jesus did not want anyone to know when He was going to return then He would not of answered their questions about His return and the end of the age.
Jesus gave us specific signs to watch for so that we who are paying attention, will know when He is returning. He even told us to pay close attention to a prophesy dealing with the "Abomination of Desolation" in Daniel.
Mat 24:15 "Therefore ...WHEN YOU SEE... the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),
Let me stop right here for a moment and draw your attention to Jesus' words. "WHEN YOU SEE". (CAPS mine) Mat 24 is Church doctrine. This means it applies to us today. What was it that Jesus expects Christians to see? The Abomination of Desolation. When does that occur? At the midpoint of the 7 year period which begins what some call the Great Tribulation. Let's continue.
16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.
18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.
Why these warnings?
Because you cannot survive in the city. You cannot hunt game or grow crops for food. You can be easily captured and put to death. Or you can take the Mark of the Beast. In other words Jesus is saying to get the heck out of Dodge quickly. He gave us these signs so that those who are wise enough will heed His warning. Let's continue."
I believe we need to consider who the audience is that Jesus is speaking to here. The 70th week is determined against Israel. Nowhere do we read that it is determined against the Church. So how would you apply Matthew 24:15-20 to yourself? Will you witness the abomination of desolation? Will you be in Judaea to flee? Why would you pray your flight not be in the winter or on the Sabbath day? What application would this have to you personally in the United States? Will you "get the heck out of Dodge"? I believe Jesus is speaking to the Jews in those verses.
"Dan 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."
Dan 11:31 And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.
Dan 12:11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Here we see that after a specific prophesy occurs, we will know exactly how long there is left to go before Christ returns."
Yes, we will know when the Second coming of Christ occurs using simple math and events. However, this still goes against the Scriptures that tell us we will not know the hour or day of His coming if you apply the above to His second coming and the rapture of the Church.
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
It would appear that Jesus is contradicting Himself by saying that no man knows the day or hour of His return and yet tells us we can know by certain events we are told to watch for, IF applied to both His second coming and the rapture of the Church as one event. Since we know the Bible cannot contradict itself [precept upon precept], which is it? We don't know? Or we do know? I believe that there are two events being spoken of. This is the only way to reconcile 'not knowing' and 'knowing'.
"Consider Paul was telling US to WATCH for "The Day of the Lord". To watch for that day requires us to be here in order to watch for it.
1Thess 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. NKJV"
If we are to watch for the Day of the Lord, that day when His anger and wrath are displayed, and His return to earth to catch up the Church takes place in the way that you believe, might we have a problem then with the following verse?
Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end [is] it for you? the day of the LORD [is] darkness, and not light [Amos 5:18].
Would we not desire for that day to come in anticipation?
"So....are you watching? ;-) "
I'm watching and waiting. :) Maybe not in the same way as you are right now, but regardless the length of waiting and events watched, and how they come to pass, I'll see you there. :glow:
Wise bible scholars should have this understanding "spoken of by Daniel the prophet" and quoted by Jesus Himself.
Mat 24:15 "Therefore ...WHEN YOU SEE... the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),
I'd agree with Jackie who says, "In other words Jesus is saying to get the heck out of Dodge quickly." :purpleangel:
What is left to happen? What do Jesus and Daniel mean by ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION? :prayingm:
It was Walter who was talking about getting out of Dodge. :)
It's difficult to read these posts sometimes since this site has no quote feature. To keep the flow of conversation and allow one to know which part of their post I'm responding to, I copy their words with quotation marks and then reply to that portion. But it can become confusing to those who read.
Does Paul state that we are to be watching for the day of the Lord in 1Thess5?
Is that not the context?
Does Paul state that the Resurrection and Rapture occurs on the Day of the Lord?
Look carefully of what says in 1Thess5:1-2.
What are the times and seasons that Paul is referring to if not the Resurrection and Rapture in 1Thess4:13-17?
Look at 1Cor 15:50-54
Does not Paul clearly state that the Events we call the Resurrection and Rapture occur WHEN a specific prophesy COME TO PAST...Death is swallowed up in Victory?
Do you know WHEN that prophesy occurs? When you read Isaiah 25:8, what is the context of that passage? Is it not the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom?
Since Paul says that the Resurrection and Rapture occurs at that time, does that not make it self evident that it is Post-Trib?
Since every Rapture passage clearly tells us it is Post-Trib., are you going to ignore these clear passages because you are unable to reconcile what Jesus means about not knowing the "day or Hour"?
"Since every Rapture passage clearly tells us it is Post-Trib., are you going to ignore these clear passages because you are unable to reconcile what Jesus means about not knowing the "day or Hour"?"
