As the times and seasons of the 2nd Coming of Christ seem to be approaching it would be good for us to be sure beyond any shadow of a doubt as to what the scriptures actually say about this subject.
The oldest documented view in Church history is the Post-Tribulation Pre-Millennial position. It is older than the new Pre-Tribulation Rapture theory by approximately 1800 years. Prior to the late 1700s AD the Pre-Tribulation Rapture theory did not exist. That's right...it is a new invention, a new belief not supported by Church history nor is it supported by any scriptures. Let's examine the scriptures in their more complete context which Pre-Trib. authors rarely ever quote the whole passage. Why? Because if they did then it would prove them to be wrong.
1 Corinthians 15: 50-54
Below is one of the key main Resurrection and Rapture passages. Notice the context in verse 50. The Kingdom of God. Now the Kingdom we all know is not physically established on Earth until Christ returns AFTER the Great Tribulation. This is where He sets up His Kingdom on Earth, forever. This is part of the context.
1Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Why are we going to be changed? Because "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God".
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The phrase: The dead shall be raised incorruptible refers to the Resurrection of the bodies of the dead believers in Christ.
The phrase: "and we shall be changed, refers to the Rapture", which immediately follows the Resurrection. This is important to understand the sequence of events.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, THEN SHALL BE BROUGHT TO PASS the saying that is written, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY.
The phrase: Death is swallowed up in victory, is an Old Testament prophesy found in Isaiah 25:8
Notice that Paul tells us... WHEN.... the Resurrection and Rapture will occur.
When an Old Testament passage comes to past. This is where we must look to Isaiah 25:8. But before you do, it would be good to read all of chapter 24 and then 25 to get the context. In summary, chapter 24 ends with a great earthquake and the "Sun and Moon" signs occurring [ which is after the Tribulation] and then the entire context of Isaiah 25 is the beginning of the establishment of the Kingdom of Christ here on Earth, which we know occurs AFTER the Great Tribulation.
Also notice that God will wipe away all tears from off ALL faces. There is no question as to the timing of the Rapture here. It is clearly Post-Tribulational.
Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
When does God wipe away ALL tears from off ALL faces?
After Christ returns which is after the Great Tribulation where He sets up His Kingdom here on Earth. Paul has clearly told us that the future Resurrection AND Rapture occurs AFTER the Tribulation.
One more important point I will add to this is concerning Isaiah 24. Isaiah 25 follows 24 in proper sequence.
Isaiah 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
This is an interesting passage in not only that it talks about the Lord reigning but also the Sun and Moon signs.
Why is this significant?
Because the sun and moon signs are the signs that occur AFTER the Tribulation ends and just prior to the 2nd Coming of Christ our Lord. This is also known as "The Day of the Lord".
Acts 2: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
How do we know this is AFTER the great Tribulation? Let's see when Jesus places this event.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
So as we can see, all the passages above speak very clearly as the Resurrection AND the Rapture occurring AFTER the Great Tribulation, proving once again that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a seriously False Doctrine / Teaching and that the Post-Tribulation/Pre-Millennial Rapture is the only correct Biblical position.
Yup, it's post-tribulation. I would think there should be no disagreement here...it's kinda obvious. The plagues fall, and Gods people are persecuted. Jesus comes back. All the living wicked are slain. All the righteous dead/living are given new bodies and taken to heaven. The judgment of the wicked takes place for a thousand years while Satan is wandering around on earth. At the end of the thousand years, the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven. All the wicked are resurrected and judged. God recreates the earth and everyone lives happily ever after.
I grew up believing in a pre-tribulational rapture an premillennialism. These views were all I had ever heard about -- (and this is probably still true for a majority 'born again' Christians, though many are familiar with mid- and post-tribulational rapture views).
After about a year in a Bible college, I was exposed to other views, and came to accept the post-tribulational rapture view; largely being influenced in reading the late George Eldon Ladd's book "The Blessed Hope." A year or so later I took a course in Hermeneutics ("the art and science of biblical interpretation") and 'converted' from premillennialism to amillennialism. Due to this I had to leave my [then] current denomination: the Assemblies of God.
Years later, around seven years or so ago, I was exposed to Preterism. *{Note -- there are two varieties of Preterism: 1) unorthodox Full-Preterism and, 2) orthodox Partial-Preterism}. My views are consistent with Partial-Preterist/Amillennial. Partial-Preterists see the "great tribulation" referred to in the Olivet Discourse (Matt 24, and Synoptic parallels) as having been fulfilled in 70AD. However, and in keeping with the view of many Partial-Preterists -- when the devil gets released from his prison, the bottomless pit, at the end of the 1,000 years (cf. Rev 20:3, 7-10); at this time there will be a [future] worldwide persecution of the Church. A time of "great tribulation" for believers -- though it is not specifically referred to as such. Thus, have my views evolved. Thanks!
You wrote, (concerning the Post-Tribulation Pre-Millennial position):
"It is older than the new Pre-Tribulation Rapture theory by approximately 1800 years."
Would you explain that to me? Where are you getting that from? Are you speaking about The "Sermon by Pseudo-Ephraem," entitled "On the Last Times, the Anti-Christ, and the End of the World."
This is Widely Believed to be a forgery from the 7th century by an unknown writer seeking to pass it off as the work of the then famous Syrian priest with that name. The name itself means "False - Ephraem".
If you were to search all of The Early writings of The Church you will not find any mention of "being raptured" (taken up -either before or after).
I would be very interested in seeing where you proof came from.
The proof is in the historical record. Throughout Church history there has been absolutely no discussions of any other Rapture view other than Post-Trib. Not until the late 1700s did the Pre-Trib. Rapture theory exist.
ALL the Early Church Fathers, whenever discussing the Tribulation time, always placed Christ's Church within the scope of being persecuted by the Anti-Christ. Here are some quotes.
Justin Martyr: (AD. 110-165) Dialog with Trypho, CX
"[T]wo advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonored, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, ... Now it is evident that no one can terrify or subdue us who have believed in Jesus over all the world. For it is plain that, though beheaded, and crucified, and thrown to wild beasts, and chains, and fire, and all other kinds of torture, we do not give up our confession; but the more such things happen, the more do others and in larger numbers become faithful, and worshippers of God through the name of Jesus."
Epistle of Barnabas: (AD. 100) IV
"The final stumbling-block (or source of danger) approaches, concerning which it is written, as Enoch says, "For for this end the Lord has cut short the times and the days, that His Beloved may hasten; and He will come to the
inheritance." And the prophet also speaks thus: "Ten kingdoms shall reign upon the earth, and a little king shall rise up after them, who shall subdue under one three of the kings." In the like manner Daniel says concerning the same, "And I beheld the fourth beast, wicked and powerful, and the more savage than all the beasts of the earth and how from it sprang up ten horns, and out of them a little budding horn, and how it subdued under one three of the ten horns. ... We take earnest heed in these last days; for the whole (past) time of your faith will profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked time we also withstand coming sources of danger, as becometh sons of God. That the Black One may find no means of entrance, let us flee from every vanity, let us utterly hate the works of the way of wickedness."
Irenaeus: Against Heresies V, XXXV, 1 (AD. 120-202) Disciple of John the Apostle
"In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord's disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, ... These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords, and King of kings. ...And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord."
"But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware of who he is:... But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple in Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father,
sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that "many coming from
the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."
"For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign on the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one."
Tertullian: (AD. 145-220) On the Resurrection of the Flesh, XLI
"In the Revelation of John, again, the order of these times is spread out to view, which "the souls of the martyrs" are taught to wait for beneath the altar, whilst they earnestly pray to be avenged and judged: (taught, I say, to wait), in order that the world may first drink to the dregs the plagues that await it out of the vials of the angels, and that the city of fornication may receive from the ten kings its deserved doom, and that the beast Antichrist, with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God; and that, after the casting of the devil into the bottomless pit for a while, the blessed prerogative of the first resurrection may be obtained from the thrones; and then again, after the consignment of him to the fire, that the judgment of the final and universal resurrection may be determined out of the books. Since, then, the Scriptures both indicate the stages of the last times, and concentrate the harvest of the Christian hope in the very end of the world." 22
"Now the privilege of this favor [the resurrection] awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh, and who shall, owing to the oppressions of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death, which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints; as he writes to the Thessalonians: "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the
archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we too shall ourselves be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
There are many, many more quotes and all of them from the Early Church Fathers are unanimous regarding the church being here during the Great Tribulation and suffering persecution from the Antichrist.
Thanks for sharing. I am well studied in Hermeneutics and apply those principles consistently. I do not see how you could ever come to the beliefs you have in Partial Preterism and Amill and maintain any consistent application of Hermeneutics. Those are seriously dangerous beliefs. Here is a link I would highly recommend you go to and study. I believe you will find it addresses all questions you may have. There is even a good debate between my Pastor and a self proclaimed expert on Preterism Sam Frost.
All the Early Church Fathers, Ante-Nicene, held to one consistent view and that is "Chiliasm". We would call them "premillennialists" today. All of their writings are dated after 70AD when Jerusalem was destroyed and yet they all looked for a future literal physical return of Christ to establish His Millennial Kingdom. This is the oldest and Orthodox view. They viewed all other beliefs to be Heresy. Here is one example.
And Trypho to this replied, �� But tell me, do you really admit that this place, Jerusalem, shall be rebuilt; and do you expect your people to be gathered together, and made joyful with Christ and the patriarchs, and the prophets, both the men of our nation, and other proselytes who joined them before your Christ came? ��
Then I answered, �� I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true
Christians, think otherwise. � For I choose to follow not men or men�s doctrines, but God and the doctrines by Him. � But I and others, who are right - minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, as the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.
AD 150 � Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho (a Jew), chapter lxxx
I got only half - way through and could not find anything even alluding to being "raptured" up to Heaven in what you cited. Am I missing something or are you reading something else into them?
Hello Walter - you wrote (QUOTE) Hi RickC, Thanks for sharing. I am well studied in Hermeneutics and apply those principles consistently. I do not see how you could ever come to the beliefs you have in Partial Preterism and Amill and maintain any consistent application of Hermeneutics. Those are seriously dangerous beliefs. Here is a link I would highly recommend you go to and study. I believe you will find it addresses all questions you may have. There is even a good debate between my Pastor and a self proclaimed expert on Preterism Sam Frost (UNQUOTE).
I enjoy discussing eschatology. I also admittedly went beyond the thread topic of "pre- or post-tribulational rapture?" in summing up my eschatological beliefs. In reply to your post -- I'm taking it for granted that you know that Sam Frost is an Full-Preterist, and that you know the differences between Full-Preterism, which is unorthodox/(heretical), and Partial-Preterism, which is orthodox/(not heretical). Since you also say you're well studied in hermeneutics, I take it for granted that you know why Amillennialists and/or Partial-Preterists have come to their beliefs/conclusions. I *strongly disagree* that Amillennialism and/or Partial-Preterism are "seriously dangerous beliefs." The reason being: they are fully consistent with orthodox, historic, Christianity! But since the millennium and preterism (in both its heretical and orthodox varieties) are beyond this thread's topic; and since I've debated dispensationalists and premillennialists "in-depth" before, I won't debate you. You made a serious charge against me and my beliefs and are entitled to your opinion. I'll suffice it to say, "I'm and orthodox Christian and, thus, am in no danger" --- and leave it at that. Thanks.
I have never said anyone ever gets "Raptured up to heaven". Where are you getting that from? I think what is missing is that you may be looking for the word Rapture when that word does not exist in the English Translations. The Rapture is part of the event known as the "Resurrection". Paul covers this in both 1 Cor 15:50-54 and 1 Thess 4:13-17.
All the Early Church Fathers placed Christ's Church as being persecuted through the Great Tribulation. The quotes from the ECFs are consistent in this. This demonstrates that there is no Pre-Trib. Rapture as that teaching cannot have the Bride of Christ in the Tribulation.
You said: "The reason being: they are fully consistent with orthodox, historic, Christianity!"
WALTER: I have to strongly disagree as historically for the first 200 years, the Orthodox, most dominated view in Christianity by the Early Church Fathers has been Chiliasm. Yes there were other teachings but they were considered heretical.
Jesus did bodily resurrect in His flesh and ascended in His flesh and will return in His flesh just as He said He would.
70AD was in no way any sort of return of Christ or any form of an establishment of His Kingdom. Christ's future Kingdom will be a physical one here upon the Earth.
