dear folks,, since GOD doesnt make you sin,then it has to be your choice and you choose to sin.. then when it comes to salvation , you also have to choose, whether you choose life or death..
deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;
james 1:13-14 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
How often do we move through life without contemplating our choices for what they are, a choice to honor and obey our Lord, or a choice to follow our own way into rebellion, even in the smallest of things like maybe having that extra piece of cake (guilty here).
Obedience in our decisions...hmmm....all of our decisions. That is definitely something worth giving thought to and praying about. Also something to try to keep toward the front of my mind as I move through life with each decision I make.....is it a decision of Christ or for myself.
Thanks again Ole Cattle, you are truly a Blessing to us all!
:waving: Concerning eternal security vs personal responsibility. We ARE required to choose Life. A little contrast to Halloween for some seeking to celebrate death.
You are right that to sin is am choice we make of our own free will. Also to obtain salvation we also have to exercise our own free will when we hear the Gospel. Additionally after we have become "saved" we also have Free Will to choose to continue in Christ or fall away and commit Apostasy. God never takes away our free will.
John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch... IN ME... that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
I want you to first notice that Jesus is talking about branches that are..."IN ME" in other words in Him, these are Christians, true believers, born again. They are "IN CHRIST".
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide[continue] in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides [continues] in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide [continue] in Me.
I have interjected the word [continue] next to "abide" as that is what that word means. It also means to "remain in a given relationship".
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides [continues] in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
Now notice the word ..."IF"...in the next verse. The word "IF" denotes a CHOICE, a person's free will to choose. It is also making a conditional statement...."if you continue".
6 IF...anyone does....NOT... abide [continue] in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Verse 6 above is very telling. Christ has placed a condition upon a person's salvation. A person has the Free Will to continue "IN HIM" or not to and notice the consequences "IF" a person does NOT continue. They are CAST OUT, withered and they are BURNED. This is a permanent condition. Eternally condemned. You cannot re-graph a branch that has been cast out, withered and burned. There is no more hope for that "branch", that person.
Let's look at what Paul had to say.
1Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved,.... if.... ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
In the above passage Paul is making a very clear statement. He is stating that a person's salvation is "conditional" by using the phrase "IF" ye keep in memory what I preached unto you". The word "IF" is a conditional word and is in every translation written. 100% of all translators used this word for this phrase as well as the passage below. What both passages are clearly stating is that our Salvation is CONDITIONAL upon our CONTINUED FAITH in the Gospel / Christ. It has nothing at all to do with works. It is our FAITH in Christ, but it is still our choice to remain/ continue or not to. FREE WILL.
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ....ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Note that Paul is not telling them of their need to obtain saving faith, but of their need to CONTINUE in their saving faith that they have already obtained and the consequence IF they do not continue which is forfeiture of their salvation. There would be no warnings if the threat and consequence of Apostasy were not real.
joshua 24:15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."
9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
There really are just a great deal of scriptures that demonstrate that God gives us the Free Will to choose, even choose to accept Christ and even later to reject Him and commit Apostasy. Here's one Jesus gave to His very own Disciples which of course means this is Church doctrine as it is a private teaching to the Apostles. Notice the words... "Abide", "Continue", "Remain", "remaining", "IF" and "IN ME". These are keys words. "IF" denotes a condition, a choice. The phrase.. "IN ME" demonstrates that this person(s) are "in Christ". Only a Christian, a true Believer is "in Christ". But notice that this person can choose to no longer "remain", Continue" Abide" in Christ and the permanent consequences for not continuing.
John 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides (continues) in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does ....NOT... abide (continue) in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. NKJV
I placed the word (continue) next to "abide" as it means the very same thing in the Greek text but gives it a more clear understanding. Youngs conveys this also by using another word which conveys that it is a choice of "remaining" in a given relationship which the Greek text also concurs.
John 15:5 `I am the vine, ye the branches; he who IS REMAINING in me, and I in him, this one doth bear much fruit, because apart from me ye are not able to do anything;
6 if any one may NOT REMAIN in me, he was cast forth without as the branch, and was withered, and they gather them, and cast to fire, and they are burned; YLT
Very cool stuff Walter! Just enhances even more the way this initial post spoke to my heart about every choice being an opportunity to make a decision that enhances our walk with Christ or serves our self serving sinful nature. What you said about "abide" and "continuous" is so true, it really is a on going daily process with each choice, something we so take for granted most of the time really. We might stop to think about the big choices, but how many of us think about all those small choices. That choice to go shovel the neighbors driveway or sit down and watch tv. That decision to read our Bible or the latest fashion magazine or tabloid. That decision to have one more cookie or a cigarette, or a drink. A decision to say something that isn't quite true or listen to gossip. How many times are choices like that made over and over, several times a day, every day with no more thought than breathing?
If we could all just give thought to stopping and giving thought to more of our choices throughout each day, every day, just think how we could all improve our walk with the Lord! I just think that is such an amazing thought. If even we just changed a couple thoughts a day over it that is more than a dozen decisions in a week that would bring us closer to God and farther from our own selfish nature. And to pray about it while we practice it, before long we might be looking at more than a hundred decisions in a month, then in a week, just small little decisions daily, small little steps toward Christ.
That is pretty amazing stuff. I challenge everyone to spend time in contemplation and prayer on this and how that applies in their own life, for I truly believe to accept that challenge can only draw you closer to Jesus.
This topic truly speaks to my heart and I want to Thank Ole Cattle for starting it and Thank everyone for all the inspiration I have found in your contributions on this thread.
Acts 13:48: And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; AND AS MANY AS HAD BEEN APPOINTED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED.
John 1:12-13: But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, WHO WERE BORN NOT OF BLOOD, NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, BUT OF GOD.
Philippians 1:29: FOR TO YOU IT HAS BEEN GRANTED FOR CHRIST'S SAKE, NOT ONLY TO BELIEVE IN HIM, but also to suffer for his sake.
Romans 8:29-30: FOR WHOM HE FOREKNEW, HE ALSO PREDESTINED to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Ephesians 1:5: HE PREDESTINED US to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.
Ephesians 1:11 Also WE HAVE OBTAINED AN INHERITANCE, HAVING BEEN PREDESTINED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE who works all things after the counsel of His will.
God is sovereign. Sovereignty means that God is supreme in power and authority, that He answers to no one, and that He may do as He pleases for whatever reason He chooses. "Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, 'My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure'" (Isaiah 46:10); "...to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur" (Acts 4:28); "...this Man [Jesus], delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross..." (Acts 2:23).
Out of a people of utter sinfulness and inability, God has chosen, by His sovereign grace, to elect some into salvation and not others. Remember, there is nothing in man that merits any favor, blessing, or mercy whatsoever. For there is no favoritism with God (Rom. 2:11). Each and every person is entirely worthy of wrath and incapable of saving himself. That is why God has chosen a people to Himself out of the good pleasure of His heart. Because without His choosing, none would ever come to Him. Therefore, predestination is a loving doctrine: "...In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ..." (Eph. 1:4,5).
He chooses some and ignores others not because of what the person has done, or what is foreknown that he would do, but simply because of God's sovereign choice: "[God] who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity" (2 Tim. 1:9); and, "for though the twins had not done anything good or bad, in order that God's purpose according to His choice might stand, not because of works, but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, 'The older will serve the younger.' Just as it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated'" (Rom. 9:11-13; see also, Psalm 11:5).
Sovereignty is why God has mercy on whom He desires and hardens whom He desires: "For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy...So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires" (Rom. 9:15,16,18). This is sovereignty! It is God who is in control.
Some He has elected to salvation, others He has not: "...for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed" (1 Pet. 2:8); And, "What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory" (Rom. 9:22-23). It seems quite clear that God prepares some for mercy and not others. That is sovereignty.
