I am trying to study a little bit into the topic of a believer falling from God's grace. I've heard many interesting sides to the argument, some saying that it is impossible, some saying that it is. I am still trying to do some research on it, so I was wondering if some of y'all wouldn't mind sharing some of your insights/wisdom? Thanks!
Reading the context of which this passage the Scripture is self-explanatory. Galatians 5:1-5 1 What the Messiah has freed us for is freedom! Therefore, stand firm, and don't let yourselves be tied up again to a yoke of slavery. 2 Mark my words - I, Sha'ul, tell you that if you undergo b'rit-milah the Messiah will be of no advantage to you at all! 3 Again, I warn you: any man who undergoes b'rit-milah is obligated to observe the entire Torah! 4 You who are trying to be declared righteous by God through legalism have severed yourselves from the Messiah! You have fallen away from God's grace! 5 For it is by the power of the Spirit, who works in us because we trust and are faithful, that we confidently expect our hope of attaining righteousness to be fulfilled. (The Complete Jewish Bible)
the NIV puts it this away: Galatians 5:1-5 1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. 2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope.
If we are trying to obtain our salvation by the ceremony of physical circumcision then we must keep the whole Law to be justified, which is impossible because the Torah contain 613 commandments, which makes up the Law. Torah literally means �teaching unto life� Yahasha, Jesus is fulfillment of the Law. He said, "Don't think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete. Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah -- not until everything that must happen has happened. (Matt. 5:17-19). Jeremiah 31:31-34 says, 31 "Here, the days are coming," says ADONAI, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Isra'el and with the house of Y'hudah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers on the day I took them by their hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt; because they, for their part, violated my covenant, even though I, for my part, was a husband to them," says ADONAI. 33 "For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Isra'el after those days," says ADONAI: "I will put my Torah within them and write it on their hearts; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will any of them teach his fellow community member or his brother, 'Know ADONAI'; for all will know me, from the least of them to the greatest; because I will forgive their wickednesses and remember their sins no more." (CJB) Jesus fulfilled this with His death, burial, and resurrection.
If we try to be justified or think we are justified by legalism-- works then the finished work of the Cross-is useless and we have �fallen from grace� because it is useless to us (not that it really is but we have treated it as such). I am /we are righteous and have right standing before the God because of Christ and Him alone!
Happy: What scripture references do you have for Paul, Timothy, and their animal sacrifices. Thanks. Also, I don't think Paul was saying, "Getting circumcised will send you to hell." I believe it was more the fact that his audience was SO wrapped up in the technical side of their faith that they failed to realize that it's more than just keeping tradition. We are to express our faith through love. THAT is the golden egg that so many were failing, and still ARE failing, to see. Thanks. (Plz don't forget the scripture for the animal sacrifices. I'd really like to read it. Thx)
Mcubed: I am understanding your stance to be that we all have fallen from God's grace, and Jesus picks us back up again. My question was more like, Once we come to know Jesus, can we fall from His grace. Once we allow Jesus into our lives, can we turn away and lose the salvation that He has blessed us with. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
For all those coming into the topic after this post, here is the updated question:
"I am trying to study a little bit into the topic of a believer falling from God's grace. Once you accept Jesus and His teaching, allowing Him to come into your life, can you fall away from your lifestyle and lose the salvation that He has given you? I've heard many interesting sides to the argument, some saying that it is impossible, some saying that it isn't. I am still trying to do some research on it, so I was wondering if some of y'all wouldn't mind sharing some of your insights/wisdom? Thanks!"
You sure love to keep me on my toes Dan�lol I say this with a big smile on my face and would give anything to be as confused as Paul if he was confused�lol�
Those are great questions. First, to address the animal sacrifices, my first thought was well for the same reasons we will offer animal sacrifices again the Millennial Kingdom. But then I researched to try to find Biblical proof of that I discovered I was wrong. We know that the Hebrews 7 explains in detail the Jesus was the final, once-for-all sacrifice for atonement of all sin (among numerous other Scriptures) Therefore, Just as the sacrifices under Mosaic law looked forward to the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ, the millennial sacrifices look backward, memorializing the same event. The sacrament/ordinance of the Lord's Supper is gone, having vanished with the ruptured church. The resumption of animal sacrifices, it is taught, is the new old way to memorialize Christ. These sacrifices will bring to a living remembrance everything of the past. The retrospect will produce the greatest scene of worship, of praise and adoration this earth has ever seen. All the Cross meant and all the Cross has accomplished will be recalled and a mighty 'Hallelujah Chorus' will fill the earth and the heavens. But then that brought me to realization it could have not been for remembrance like millennial sacrifices, because we know from 1 Corinthians that Paul and the Church obeyed the command of the Lord in partaking of The Lord�s Supper in remembrance of Him�just as we do today. Therefore, I have to give the answer I don�t know. However, my personal conclusion, I have nothing to back this up, is this:
it was done for the reason Paul said, �I am no man�s slave, but I have made myself a slave to all, in order to win the more for Christ. To the Jews I have made myself as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those who live under the law I have come as one under the law, in order to win those who are under the law � not that I myself am under the law. To those who live without the law I have come as one without the law, in order to win those who are without the law � not that I am
really under no law in relation to God, for I am bound by the law of Christ. To those who
are weak I have made myself weak, so as to win the weak; in fact, I have become all things to all people, in order that, one way or another, I may rescue some of them. But I do it all for the sake of the gospel, so that I may share its blessings with others� (1 Cor. 9:19-23). With Paul�s grate love and concern for the Jew and all those under the Law, I do not think it would be a stretch of the imagination to believe for him to offer animal sacrifices would be to convert the Jew and those under the Law (remember the God fearing Genitals).
Paul�s words �all things to all men� suggest an unprincipled, chameleon-like attitude, an adapting of one�s words and actions to one�s surroundings without any reference to one�s real thoughts and principles. I Corinthians 8 exemplifies this:
1 Now about food sacrificed to idols: we know that, as you say, "We all have knowledge." Yes, that is so, but "knowledge" puffs a person up with pride; whereas love builds up. 2 The person who thinks he "knows" something doesn't yet know in the way he ought to know. 3 However, if someone loves God, God knows him. 4 So, as for eating food sacrificed to idols, we "know" that, as you say, "An idol has no real existence in the world, and there is only one God." 5 For even if there are so-called "gods," either in heaven or on earth - as in fact there are "gods" and "lords" galore - 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom all things come and for whom we exist; and one Lord, Yeshua the Messiah, through whom were created all things and through whom we have our being. 7 But not everyone has this knowledge. Moreover, some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat food which has been sacrificed to them, they think of it as really affected by the idol; and their consciences, being weak, are thus defiled. 8 Now food will not improve our relationship with God - we will be neither poorer if we abstain nor richer if we eat. 9 However watch out that your mastery of the situation does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 You have this "knowledge"; but suppose someone with a weak conscience sees you sitting, eating a meal in the temple of an idol. Won't he be built up wrongly to eat this food which has been sacrificed to idols? 11 Thus by your "knowledge" this weak person is destroyed, this brother for whom the Messiah died; 12 and so, when you sin against the brothers by wounding their conscience when it is weak, you are sinning against the Messiah! 13 To sum up, if food will be a snare for my brother, I will never eat meat again, lest I cause my brother to sin.
Which leads into why Paul circumcised Timothy? Timothy was circumcised not because of any legal reason, but so that he could witness amongst the Jews. The bible knowledge commentary says concerning Acts 16:1-2. However, This appears to contradict Paul�s thinking in Galatians 2:3-5 where he refused to let Titus be circumcised. The situations, however, were different. In Galatians 2 the issue was the method of justification; here it was a question of not giving offense (cf. 1 Cor. 9:19-23). The Jerusalem Council, of course, had determined circumcision was not necessary for salvation (Acts 15:10-11, 19). In Acts 16 Paul acted as he did for the sake of the ministry; it was a wise move.
Sounds like you are saying for Paul, the ends justify the means. Scary thought! Always better to be truthfull and let the Holy Spirit do His job.
You speak of Ezekiel's Temple as the millennium, but Ez 43:6 says God will dwell in that Temple forever. Is that the Temple in Isaiah 2 where the whole world will come to see?
Jesus was also circumcised and an animal sacrifice. Do you think he was without sin because He didn't have kids? But if He didn't, would that be against the command to be fruitful and multiply?
That is in no way the ends justify the means� we have to remember that Paul was writing 2/3s if the New Testament as it was being revealed to him by the Holy Spirit. Even if every converted Jew at that time still continued to practice animal sacrifice until the Temple was destroyed in A.D.70 it would not have lessened or cheapened the Gospel just like they didn�t have to circumcised themselves any more but obviously if they did like Timothy it didn�t make the Gospel of no effect. . We have the finished Word of God they didn�t. The 27 books of the New Testament were written between A.D. 40and A.D. 62 we cannot forget that the writers only had the Old Testament to go by and then as the Holy Spirit revealed to them.
We�ve kid of taken over the other thread with talking about Ezekiel it�s probably not a good idea to take over this one too�lol I do the best of my ability to answer your question there.
I'm sorry that I did miss understand what you were asking, I thought you were asking about that Scripture. I feel like I have kind of dominated this thread and I really don't want it to be like that, but your question is something I am very passionate about so of course I have to share..lol
God made His holy and perfect Son become sin for us, so we could become the righteousness of God in the Messiah. "We have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Yeshua the Messiah, once for all... by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." (Hebrews 10:10,14) Yeshua made the decision He would rather go to hell for us than to go to heaven without us.
Can serious sin cause someone to lose their eternal life? We know that all sin is serious enough to separate us from God but believers have an advocate who has paid the price for all past and future sins. The apostle John encouraged believers not to sin, "but if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense -- Yeshua the Messiah, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins." (1 John 2:1-2) This comforting truth is also revealed in Hebrews 7:25: "He (Yeshua) is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them."
Is it possible to turn your back on God and lose your salvation? Yeshua said no one has the power to do so. "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish...My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand." (John 10:28-29) The Father indeed has the power to assure the life Yeshua gives is everlasting, not temporal or perishable.
We be assured of eternal life The Apostle Paul makes it very clear: "You also were included in the Messiah when you heard the word of truth, the Gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance. (Ephesians 1:13-14) In such passages as 2 Corinthians 1:22, and Ephesians 1:13, the apostle Paul indicated that the Holy Spirit acts as the very seal of God's ownership of the believer; He serves as the guarantee of our inheritance to come - namely, eternal life (John 5:24; 1 John 5:13). In describing, our inheritance the apostle Peter used some very powerful words - words like "imperishable," "undefiled," and "unfading" (1 Pet. 1:5). With these words, He underscored the everlasting assurance believers have with respect to God's gift of salvation.
The gift of salvation is secured forever by the faithfulness of God. He promises never to take back the gifts He has given. "God's gifts and His call are irrevocable." (Romans 11:29) His "promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed" to those who have the faith. (Romans 4:16) "And if by grace, then it is no longer by works, if it were, grace would no longer be grace" (Romans 11:6). Paul is making it crystal clear that salvation can only be assured when a repentant sinner receives it as a gift of God's grace. Anyone who believes salvation can be earned nullifies God's grace and His promises that come with it. Whenever man is involved in attaining and preserving salvation there can be no assurance.
The questions I have for those that do believe that we can loose our salvation is if the Blood of Jesus was powerful enough to save me why or how does it become so weak that it can�t keep me saved? What is the point to salvation then? I would hope that since making it to heaven then is a gamble that He will be merciful enough to instantly take people home once they get saved because they may end up in hell in the end. And this really confuses me�. Which sin is it that make the believer crosses the line and Jesus says my Blood will no longer be atonement for you? I mean that God commands us to take care of the widow and poor, to bring about justice for every wrong, it is a sin to grumble to others and not go to God and talk to Him about it, we are to pray without ceasing and in all things give Him thanks� if we are not doing this we are in sin. Samuel said Israel I will not sin against God and not pray for you, not praying for our country and Israel is sin. Is it these sins that can make me loose my salvation? Or can it be the Bible says that we are to cast down all imaginations and every thing high and lifted up and bring it subject to the Word of God, it also says that what is lovely, pure and of good reproach think on these things. All through the Old Testament God rebuked the Israelites� for their thoughts� it these sins that will make me possibly one day lose my salvation? Or is it just those what we like to call big ones like fornication, drunkenness, bondage to addictions that can make me lose my salvation? Is it only overt sins that other people can see that will make some one lose salvation, or do those covert, hidden from others (in our heart and mind) count? And my last question� how many times do we get only 70 x 7, 1000, maybe since Jesus is interceding for us before the Father we might get 2000 times to sin. I do have one more question. I got saved by calling on the name of the Lord, and believed in my heart and I was save in Feb. of 1991 and believe me I was the lowest of low.. I did not have any works that could get me saved why can that same faith in Jesus keep me saved? Why must I worry now that I could loose this great salvation? These are very real questions for me�.
Over the past 20 years I have fallen more and more in love with Him and because of this growing relationship some sins that really use to trip me up He has completely freed me from others I still commit daily but His mercy keeps abounding to me and as I keep growing in His grace I will do them less and hopefully be completely free to have Him reveal more sin in my life to me so He can keep purifying me like pure gold. Eternal security is not a free sin fest the more you grown in Him the more you hate sin. But I have never, never had a day weather it was a good being all Godly one or one you may look at me and say you can�t be a saved that I did not know I was going to heave because of Papa�my Jesus!!�
Mcubed: Thanks for your insight. A very thought provoking read. I agree with you that the closer you draw to God the more you hate sin. Mainly, the argument was that you can't lose your salvation once it was gained. If you turn away from God, then you were never fully saved, and so you haven't lost your salvation... you just never received it. That is what brought along the question, because I was always under the belief that if you turned away from God and the teachings of Jesus, that you could lose your salvation. Don'tHitThatMark, however, brought to my attention some very interesting verses. More specifically, Romans 11 caught my attention. It speaks about an olive tree with branches being broken off and grafted on and then broken off again. This would lead me to believe that your salvation CAN be lost if you turn away. However, a few verses later, it states that ALL Israel will be saved after the Gentiles come in. Therefore, they didn't lose their salvation. I'm still pondering these things. Jesus Himself said that whoever denies Him on earth He will deny in front of His Father. Is it possible for a believer, an honest believer, to lose faith and say that God doesn't exist, and still go to heaven? (losing salvation) Very interesting stuff.
would give anything to be as confused as Paul if he was confused�lol�