Sometimes I wonder if some of you understand how offensive we are to god,and that this is the first,and absolutly nescesary step to salvation,because of the fall,we are utterly sinful,incapable of pleasing god,even after salvation,itsthe rightousness of christ that the lord sees that keeps us from judgement,yes god loves us,but not because of anything we ever do,our attitudes should be complete humility,and thankfulness,never proud or boastful,I just dont want our lord turned into some grandfatherly type person that just thinks we are so cute no matter what we do.God is perfect love,but he is also perfectly holy,and just,We need a balance in our lives,the only prayer jesus ever taught us is the lords prayer,full of reverance and thankfulness,emphasizing gods will being done,some christians ,it seems would insert the phrase my will be done,
People often assume that total depravity is a denial of free will, which isn't the case. We just believe that it's limited because sin has corrupted it; but I'm not here for another long argument... It will get me riled up again. Lol.
Walter, Walter, Walter..... Are you still spreading those Armenian falsehoods? LOL. No, I am not going to argue this whole subject with you again. I think both are false teachings. They are man trying to explain God, and both fall short.
As for total depravity.....The problem is, we look at things through our eyes as if that was how God sees them. God's standard is perfection, we are not even capable of understanding this. We see someone doing good things and we think they are good Christians, but it is what is in the heart that counts, on everything. Have you ever done something for someone else without hesitation, without thinking about it? Without even wondering what it would cost you? Just because it was for a fellow human? I haven't. Those thoughts just jump in there. I have even had to make myself do the right thing at times. None of that is good enough. All of these things just further prove how depraved we are.
No my Brother, Arminian theology is the consistent teaching in the scriptures. When you say that it is man made, that tells me that you do not have a firm grasp of it. In fact as I have said to you before, you can trace all the ideas and concepts of what we call Arminian Theology today and find that that is what was taught in the very Early Church, the Ante-Nicene Fathers some of whom were the direct Disciples of John and Paul the Apostles. Interestingly enough, prior to St. Augustine, you cannot find any of the concepts and ideas of Calvinism in the Early Church Fathers. Those who taught pre-destiny, fatalism, and such came from the Greek philosophical schools and Gnosticism and Eastern Mysticism. Augustine came from Gnostic and Neo-Platonic background and his ideas unfortunately brought in the eventual Heresy of Calvinism. This is an irrefutable fact of Church history.
Here is one quote of many by the Early Church Fathers. This one is by Ignatius who was the direct disciple of John the Apostle.
Ignatius (AD30-107)
"Seeing, then, all things have an end, and there is set before us life upon our observance [of God�s precepts], but death as the result of disobedience, and every one, according to the choice he makes, shall go to his own place, let us flee from death, and make choice of life. For I remark, that two different characters are found among men � the one true coin, the other spurious. The truly devout man is the right kind of coin, stamped by God Himself. The ungodly man, again, is false coin, unlawful, spurious, counterfeit, wrought not by God, but by the devil. I do not mean to say that there are two different human natures, but that there is one humanity, sometimes belonging to God, and sometimes to the devil. If any one is truly religious, he is a man of God; but if he is irreligious, he is a man of the devil, made such, not by nature, but by his own choice. The unbelieving bear the image of the prince of wickedness. The believing possess the image of their Prince, God the Father, and Jesus Christ, through whom, if we are not in readiness to die for the truth into His passion, His life is not in us." (Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, V)
For more quotes and great studies of this issue go here.
We have had this argument too many times. Here is what Wikipedia had to say about the age of Armenianism.
Arminianism is a school of soteriological thought within Protestant Christianity based on the theological ideas of the Dutch Reformed theologian Jacobus Arminius (1560-1609)[1] and his historic followers, the Remonstrants. The doctrines' acceptance stretches through much of mainstream Christianity, including evangelical Protestantism.[citation needed]
Arminianism holds to the following tenets:
* Humans are naturally unable to make any effort towards salvation (see also prevenient grace).
* Salvation is possible only by God's grace, which cannot be merited.
* No works of human effort can cause or contribute to salvation.
* God's election is conditional on faith in the sacrifice and Lordship of Jesus Christ.
* Christ's atonement was made on behalf of all people.
* God allows his grace to be resisted by those who freely reject Christ.
* Believers are able to resist sin but are not beyond the possibility of falling from grace through persistent, unrepented-of sin.[2]
Arminianism is most accurately used to define those who affirm the original beliefs of Jacobus Arminius himself, but the term can also be understood as an umbrella for a larger grouping of ideas including those of Hugo Grotius, John and Charles Wesley, and others. There are two primary perspectives on how the system is applied in detail: Classical Arminianism, which sees Arminius as its figurehead, and Wesleyan Arminianism,
which sees John Wesley as its figurehead. Wesleyan Arminianism is sometimes synonymous with Methodism. In addition, Arminianism is understood by some of its critics to also include Semipelagianism or even Pelagianism, though proponents of both primary perspectives vehemently deny these claims.[3]
Within the broad scope of Church history, Arminianism is closely related to Calvinism (or Reformed theology), and the two systems share both history and many doctrines in common. Nonetheless, they are often viewed as rivals within Evangelicalism because of their disagreement over details of the doctrines of divine predestination and salvation.[4
Sorry, but it was an offshoot of Calvinism. Jacobus' nephew studied under Calvin prior to him starting this theological view. This is well recorded in history. I can get you the same information from many other sources if you wish.
Personally, I believe the Bible, not something made up by man to explain God.
Sorry Leon but your sources are not accurate. James Arminius later opposed Calvins theology and the two systems are not the same. Arminian theology is not derived from Calvinism but from the Holy Scriptures.
Exegetically speaking there are no flaws in Arminian Theology while Calvinism cannot stand under proper exegesis which I have demonstrated numerous times in the past.
Additionally you have not addressed the Historical fact that the very Disciples of John and Paul as well as other Early Church Fathers...aka Ante-Nicene, all taught the same ideas and concepts of what we call Arminian theology today. That is very weighty evidence my Friend as it demonstrates a continuous line of teaching by the Apostles to their disciples. :) "the faith once delivered to the saints".
Here are "The Five Arminian Articles of Remonstrance"
I.That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ His Son, before the foundations of the world were laid, determined to save, out of the human race which had fallen into sin, in Christ, for Christ's sake and through Christ, those who through the grace of the Holy Spirit shall believe on the same His Son and shall through the same grace persevere in this same faith and obedience of faith even to the end; and on the other hand to leave under sin and wrath the contumacious and unbelieving and to condemn them as aliens from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36, and other passages of Scripture.
II.That, accordingly, Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that He has obtained for all, by His death on the cross, reconciliation and remission of sins; yet so that no one is partaker of this remission except the believers [John 3:16; 1 John 2:2].
III.That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the working of his own free-will, inasmuch as in his state of apostasy and sin he can for himself and by himself think nothing that is good � nothing, that is, truly good, such as saving faith is, above all else. But that it is necessary that by God, in Christ and through His Holy Spirit he be born again and renewed in understanding, affections and will and in all his faculties, that he may be able to understand, think, will, and perform what is truly good, according to the Word of God [John 15:5].
IV.That this grace of God is the beginning, the progress and the end of all good; so that even the regenerate man can neither think, will nor effect any good, nor withstand any temptation to evil, without grace precedent (or prevenient), awakening, following and co-operating. So that all good deeds and all movements towards good that can be conceived in through must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But with respect to the mode of operation, grace is not irresistible; for it is written of many that they resisted the Holy Spirit [Acts 7 and elsewhere passim].
V.That those who are grafted into Christ by a true faith, and have thereby been made partakers of His life-giving Spirit, are abundantly endowed with power to strive against Satan, sin, the world and their own flesh, and to win the victory; always, be it understood, with the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit, with Jesus Christ assisting them in all temptations, through His Spirit; stretching out His hand to them and (providing only that they are themselves prepared for the fight, that they entreat His aid and do not fail to help themselves) propping and upbuilding them so that by no guile or violence of Satan can they be led astray or plucked from Christ's hands [John 10:28]. But for the question whether they are not able through sloth or negligence to forsake the beginning of their life in Christ, to embrace again this present world, to depart from the holy doctrine once delivered to them, to lose their good conscience and to neglect grace--this must be the subject of more exact inquiry in the Holy Scriptures, before we can teach it with full confidence of our mind.
LOL. No, Walter and I have argued this one many, many, times without either of us moving. I think it is time for he and I to put this one to bed.
Walter, I think I will find something new to argue with you about. We have both heard all the arguments of the other. However, just for the record, I am not a Calvinist as some might think. I believe the Bible and think that both fall short.
