I was reading another forum post and it got me a little stirred up. Just wanted to throw something in here....the pharisees didn't just have the ten commandments....they had their own "pharisee" law that they were making up as they went(I think those were the laws Jesus was talking about...straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel), they had the laws of Moses...the one kept beside the ark of the covenant, on the outside...and written on a scroll(doesn't sound permanent does it? Deut. 31:23-29, and Col 2:14). The old testament Jewish nation had a direct covenant with God. God lived with them. They made some pretty strict laws because God cannot tolerate sin in His presence. They had a sacrificial system(and they kinda forgot this part), that pointed to the messiah and his work. When Jesus came and died, they didn't need to have all the sacrificial system stuff anymore right? Type had met anti-type.
However, God's ten commandment law was inside the golden ark, written on stone(sounds precious and permanent). It wasn't for the Jews only. You could see it at the beginning...in the Garden of Eden. He created the 7th day "sabbath" before He wrote the ten commandments down(if you read Gen. 2:1-4 and Exodus 20:11, they're almost the same...) . Cain was an outcast because he committed murder. This was before Jewish people existed. Back when they were just...human. I believe the Ten Commandment law is God's character, interpreted in a way that we could understand it in human terms...and so we could know what sin is, and try to avoid it(Rom. 7:7, Rom. 3:20.)
Anyway...long story short...I believe that the "laws and ordinances nailed to the cross"(Col. 2:14, Eph. 2:15) were the "Laws of Moses" that WERE only for the Jews(look at how much Paul preaches against forcing "circumcision", and "not eating food offered to idols", and so on...those are in the mosaic law, not the ten commandments), and the laws concerning the sacrificial system, Jewish holy days, and the prophets that pointed to Jesus, which He fulfilled(Matt. 5:17-19). I don't think it was the Ten Commandments. Later on in Matthew 5(verse 20 and on) he talks about several of the commandments and He says "Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment" and "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." Now I don't know about you...but keeping the spirit of the law sounds harder then just keeping it! And...I don't think it's possible for anyone to keep it perfectly. If it was, Jesus wouldn't have had to die. But I do think we're supposed to try. I don't think the ten commandments are any less important then God's own character...and I don't think they are any less invincible...it's just what I believe...don't take my word for it, look it up. You might even read 3 verses before and after the texts I gave to make sure it's in context. And then let's have a discussion!:yay:
:peace::peace:
Here's a few more random ones I found.
1 JOHN 5:3
JAM. 2:10-12
PSALMS 19:7
LUKE 16:17
...and part of the reason I'm bringing this up is because I find these conversations strange...help me out.
Me: Do you think we should pray to the sun?
Answer: What? No! Are you a freak?
Me: Do you think we should make or worship Idols?
Answer: No!
Me: Do you think we should take the name of God in vain?
Answer: No way!
Me: Do you think we should honor our father and mother?
Answer: Yes! As long as what they ask doesn't go against God!
Me: Do you believe stealing is wrong?
Answer: Definitely!
Me: Murder bad?
Answer: Oh yeah! Very bad! Life is precious!
Me: Adultery?
Answer: It's not right to abuse your sacred marriage vows! It's just wrong!
Me: Bear false witness?
Answer: Horrible! Even gossip and white lies are bad!
Me: Thou shalt not covet??
Answer: It's Bad! Evil! Sin!
Me: Should we remember the seventh day to keep it holy?
Answer: *Insert your answer here*
(The answer I get the most is "No, we're not under the law, it was done away with at the cross. Now we keep Sunday, to honor the Lord's resurrection." Or, "Everyday is my sabbath".)
Simply the way I apprehend this , The Commandments and all laws before Christ were mainly addressing ones actions, a lot MUST be done, or serious consequences. Now, we live by His grace.
"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.... " Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law"Galatians 3: 10-13
Yes, grace is good and it's the only thing that saves us...but does that mean that after I find grace...I can go out and steal something? Commit murder? Worship idols? I guess I'm asking...how many of those 10 laws are done away with under grace?
hi there...i would be happy to have some discussion with you - i dont know which topics you were reading, but the following are some i posted a while ago regarding my beliefs on law and grace - conclusions that i have come to after countless hours of study and prayer and discussion...necessary because much of this represents a complete about face from what i believed even two years ago...
anyway, take a look at this and see if it helps you out at all. im not going to say much more tonite, because its late and i have to work early in the morning, but i will say just a couple of things...
1) the law that was abolished and fulfilled by jesus on the cross was the mosaic law (10 commandments etc)...not simply the customs and pharisaical laws of that time. i am willing to get into this in more detail here or by personal message another time if you like...i am too tired tonite however...sorry.
2) you are right when you say that the law is a representation of the character of god - that is true. it was never intended to bring salvation though. the mosaic law was given to prove that man could NEVER on our own efforts live up to the standards that god requires. it was given to bring us to the end of ourselves and to help us see our need for jesus and his saving grace. it is true that as christians we are to seek to be like jesus, but it is out of a completely different attitude than when we were under the law. again i dont have time to go into this in more detail right now, but will be happy to do so here or by personal message another time...
most of this is also explained in greater detail in the forum topics i posted links for above...
I don't believe the law brings salvation. We are already sinful, and the law points that out....points us to Christ for salvation. But I also think that a Christian is supposed to become like Jesus, and have his character. How do we do that? By living like him AFTER we're saved. How do we know what he's like? "If you've seen me you've seen the Father". And how do we know what the Father is like? His character is in the 10 commandments. So by following the character of God, we become like Jesus. I don't think Jesus would break any of the commandments or "teach men so", right? So should we? Just a thought...
Still...I don't believe it's possible to keep the 10 commandments perfectly. That's why we need grace so badly. Everyone fails, me included. But we need to try! We need to want to have God's character(not necessarily his perfection).
i'm going to reply in brief right now, and more detail later tonight or possibly tomorrow morning as i have to get to work shortly...
what you say is certainly true when you say that we are already sinful and that the law points us to christ for salvation. the law exists to show us our great need for god, and our inability to measure up to his standards of perfection under our own strength. it was given to bring us to the end of ourselves, to make us give up and say "i cant do this on my own, i need your help".
you are also right when you say that our character is to be continually undergoing change to make it more like jesus...that is where our difference of opinion begins though.
the, as previously stated is there to show us that we dont measure up under our own strength. once we come to jesus, we have realized that we cannot do it on our own and have surrendered to him. that is the beauty of christianity and the crux of the gospel, or good news. tell me, what is good news about a faith where we are told that the son of god has come to die for us, but we still have to work at obeying him in the same way that they did before that son of god came?! oh and by the way, if we do work at it and fail, then death is the result. all the law is able to do is show us our sin, and bring death, unless you are able to observe it perfectly, which no man is. jesus was the only one who could ever and will ever be able to do that.
for further reference look at romans 2, 7 and 1 corinthians 15 (56 specifically...the whole chapter is good though). these verses tell us (among other things) that the law is good, but it produces sin in our lives, opens us up to the lusts of the flesh and it is also a trap that satan uses to control our minds and render us ineffective...this is a bit of a tangent, but the law is one of his most powerful weapons against christians who believe that they have to try and live up to it.....if you have ever experienced the guilt/shame that all too often play on our minds when we commit one of the sins described by the law then you will understand what i am talking about. satan uses the law to condemn us and keep us tied up with worrying about our salvation and whether or not we are good enough. the truth is we are not, but god loves us anyway.
i am also reminded of the verse that says for it is by grace that you have been saved, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of god not by works so that no man can boast.
now, im going to wrap up because i do have to go, but like i said ill respond in more detail sometime in the next day or so...but let me leave you with this.
you were saying that we still were to try to live up to the law. i believe that we are to love jesus and keep his commandments. now before you say this is the same thing, let me explain. the 10 commandments are impossible for us to keep no matter how hard we try. that is a works based system and we will always fail.
now here is what jesus was referring to - he gave us two commandments..."love the lord your god with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and love your neighbour as yourself. in these is summed up all the law and the prophets" what was he referring to here? i believe it is the difference between living a lifestyle based on law, and a lifestyle based on grace...and they are two very different things. the law based system always says you dont measure up, you arent good enough, you need to try harder. but you will still never be good enough. i dont know about you but that doesnt sound like good news....
the grace based system says, i (jesus) am good enough for you. i have made you righteous. you no longer need to worry about keeping the law in detail. love god, and love people to put it simply. that covers it all. the operative word here is LOVE...that is the basis of the grace of god, and of the new covenant - the love of god. now that sounds like good news to me.
jesus did all the work on our behalf. all we have to do now is accept it, and love god and others and as we are sanctified and become more and more like jesus and god through drawing closer to him we will find our desires to sin are growing less and less...we will never reach perfection this side of heaven, however in gods eyes we are already there through the blood of jesus shed on the cross to cover our sins once and for all.
one final thought i will leave you with...i think we would agree that no single act or combination of acts (aside from repentance and believing in jesus) is good enough to gain a sinful person righteousness and salvation...correct? nothing we are able to do on our own strength will gain us access to heaven or make us right in the eyes of god.
now, why is it then that we so easily are lead astray to believe that a single act can be bad enough to cause us to fall from righteousness and lose our salvation?! once we are saved, no act is bad enough (save denial of christ, by words or lifestyle...habitual, premeditated sin as an example) to cause us to lose our righteousness and salvation.
just as we cannot gain our own salvation through works, i believe that neither can we lose our salvation through works.
anyway, im out of time for this morning. i will write more later.
I'm just confused again here...how do we love others? By stealing from them? Murdering them? Lying to them? How do we love God? By worshiping idols? Taking His name in vain? Worshiping other gods? So I guess what you're saying is, through grace we automatically keep the 10 commandments? We agree that works has nothing to do with salvation, right? Grace is all we need. But all I want to know is...how do we love God without keeping the first 4 commandments, and how do we love other people without keeping the last 6? James 1:22-27, James 2:8-26, James 4:17. Paul and James aren't arguing...I think they're trying to say "look...we're all saved by grace...but there is a balance. Faith with out works is dead, and works without faith is dead....how about...faith WITH works!? Genius!!"
Dear brother in Christ, I don't think grace ever meant to continue in sin, or dare to commit. Of course, as u said we can't go steal something, or kill someone...etc.
"For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. "
Also here the Bible declares in Romans 6: 1 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? "
We must be aware that our "old man" is crucified with him, and that the body of sin might be destroyed...."
Ok, so since we know the law shows us sin...murder is a sin we wouldn't have known except through the law, right? Stealing...and so on...what about the 4th one? Wouldn't breaking that one be a sin as well? It just really confuses me when someone says, "no, of course we shouldn't lie, it's a sin!"...but when they get to the 4th one...all of a sudden it's "ok" to forget that one? The only one that says "remember"? ....I'm...so confused...
just because we are saved by grace doesnt mean it is ok to forget the law - it simply means we dont have to live under the law. we dont have to try to live up to it in order to become right with god. we are already right with god!! that is the gospel message.
now...sin is sin, and it is still wrong - no doubt about it. the beauty of grace though is that our sins are already forgiven by god - nailed to the cross with jesus and covered in his blood for all eternity.
the only sin that can separate us from god once we surrender our lives to him (except for habitual practiced sin, but that is a WHOLE other can of worms...another discussion for another day...) is the sin of unbelief, which in short is our rejection of christ and his sacrifice on the cross.
now, as far as daily conduct goes, what does this mean?!
here is the way i see it.
1) we dont need to be constantly worrying about keeping the law or living up to god's standards
2) because of the amazing grace and love that jesus has shown us, it is only natural for us to want to love him back...and part of that is spending time with him, growing closer to him and as a result of our love for him a desire to obey his commands...THIS WILL NOT TAKE PLACE OVERNIGHT - it is a process...a matter of time spend with jesus getting to know him and his heart.
3) all of a sudden we find ourselves loving god with everything that is in us and we are consumed with thoughts of god, his presence and we cant get enough of him. there is a reason why jesus mentioned that one first as well i believe...once we have begun to find ourselves in that place with him, a byproduct of that will be that we begin to love those around us in a way that we never thought possible before. and its easy!! much easier than if we were trying to do it on our own strength....
the key is in the attitude and the way you are looking at it. LOVE god, and LOVE your neighbour as yourself...if you start with the one, the second follows naturally and everything else falls into place. if you look at it, those two statements cover everything in the 10 commandments...but its the attitude we go about it with and how we view god that makes all the difference.
i hope this helps a bit....now keep in mind, i am not saying that we will never commit any sins again, because that is certainly not the case...we will still sin regularly...thats a result of the fall and our sinful nature...but, we dont need to constantly be worrying about our sins and always running to god to ask for forgiveness and focusing on our sin all the time...we should instead realize we have done wrong and then put it behind us by going back to god and spending time with him and loving him...which may include repentance, but again...its the attitude that we go about it with. not an attitude of oh im so sorry i did this, please forgive me so i can be right iwht you again....but instead an attitude of i love you so much god, i realize that this hurt you and i am sorry...not because we need the forgiveness, because that is already ours, but because we love god so much we cant bear the thought of hurting him....
i hope that makes sense to you...and helps you out with understanding a bit.
Praise the LORD JESUS CHRIST and peace be unto you my brother. To answer your question:
Think of the old and new testaments as contracts or lease agreements, if you will.
Now if I'm under a lease agreement with my apartment complex, the terms stated therein are for me to follow. If you live in another apartment complex up the road under different management, then you don't have to follow the terms of my lease agreement, but rather the terms stated in your own lease agreement. So we find these words in Scripture...
"Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:" Acts 15:24
You see dear one, the law (the old testament) was an agreement between GOD and the Children of Israel after the flesh and not the Gentiles.
Now there is such a thing called "the righteouness of the law" Romans 8:4. The righteouness of the law is fulfilled in us who walk after the SPIRIT of GOD.
So then as we walk after the SPIRIT of GOD (different than the letter), we will automatically do those things that please the LORD. Gal 5:16-24
Now the law serves the purpose of magnifying sin, making it exceedingly sinful, with the intention of bringing the condemned to CHRIST for salvation as we see our need for a SAVIOUR. Now that's if you even have the law, for some come to CHRIST without knowledge of the law. (Rom 2:12)
Ga 3:24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Ga 3:25
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Simply put, the Law is Knowlege (Romans 3:20), but Grace is Power (Romans 6:14)
As Christians, we are under the New Covenant, and Yes the Old Covenant written and engraven in Stones Has been Abolished (II Corinthians Chp 3).
The new Covenant says this
Heb 10:16
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the LORD, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Now how does this look Practically?
Ro 2:14
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Ro 2:15
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another ;)
Now we must remember that the law is a whole and either you're under it (all of it) or you're not under it at all.
Ro 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
It's either Grace of the Law, but it cannot be both.
Ga 5:3
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Ga 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you , whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Ga 2:19
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Ro 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Now the Keeping the the Sabbath day had to do with the Jews under the Old Covenant. Yes we see them in Scripture still worshipping on the Sabbath and that's well. As Christians, we are not bound by a particular day (Col 2:16, Rom 14:5-6), yet we can also worship on the seventh day of the week if we so choose, seeing we have this liberty in CHRIST. But also note how often the Apostles were in the temple after the HOLY GHOST was given.
Ac 5:42
And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.
So here's the simplied version of all I have spoken by the grace of GOD.
Sinners (with or without the Law) come to CHRIST, after hearing the Glorious Gospel. CHRIST forgives and saves them and gives them Power by the HOLY GHOST to live their lives pleasing to GOD.
Going back to the lease agreements. Though both our lease agreements may have similarities (i.e, none of us can play loud music, no pets, etc), they are still two separate lease agreements which may also differ in some areas. Yes adultery and lying are sinful under both covenants, but they are still two different and distinct covenants; and we can only be Truly Saved under One, the New One. Praise the LORD.
