I’ve been thinking of ways to introduce the doctrine of the Trinity without composing encyclopedic posts. I’ve finally settled on at least one approach (at least for the time being). Why not share various passages found in the Old Testament firstly. Since there are many OT verses hinting to the Trinity it makes sense to start there. Perhaps the reader might better observe the doctrine as it unfolds more fully into NT scripture
@LittleDavid, at least you're being honest stating the Trinity is only "hinted" at, and "unfolds". Maybe someday you'll admit the Bible does Not explicitly teach this man made doctrine. Trinity or Not, what you really need to admit is salvation is Not dependent on the belief in a Trinity and get back to the teachings of Jesus.
Please quality the truthfulness of your post by quoting me having said one’s “salvation is dependent on the belief in a Trinity”.
Like many of your previous posts you rely on incomplete information, conjecture, false accusations, ad hominem attacks and false judgements to make your case.
@LittleDavid; I am a follower of Y'shua's Torah teachings. I have no sect for you to dissect. My opinion your postion of Trinity based salvation is an eclectic opinion based past interactions with you. Why do you persist on this path. If I'm wrong about you in this reguard, then tell me. If I'm right, then defend your postion. I'll either retract or engage. But playing coy accomplishes nothing.
It’s really very simple, allow me to define what I believe. It’s really just that simple.
I’ve never said anything anywhere about salvation being “dependent on the belief in a Trinity”. Only you think I said this but you can’t seem to establish your honesty by quoting me.
No honest person just accuses someone of saying something without evidence. That’s why honest persons point to quotes as proof.
This isn’t difficult
If you define straight talk as being “coy”, I can’t help you
Little David claims that I do not believe in the eternal Divinity of Jesus our great **GOD AND SAVIOR**
However I believe in the **ETERNAL DIVINITY OF JESUS** but not in the eternal Divinity of the holy spirit!
Jesus is called **GOD** 7 times in God's Word and is called **LORD** over 200 times in the New Testament, and is **WORSHIPED** 12 times in the New Testament, and God's Word tells us to only **WORSHIP GOD** in Revelation 22:8,9 below!! While the holy spirit is never called **GOD** or **LORD** in God's Word and is **NEVER WORSHIPED** in God's Word!!
Revelation 22:8,9: I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. But he said to me, "**DON'T DO THAT** A am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who **KEEP THE WORDS** of this book. **WORSHIP GOD**!!
Revelation 5:11-14: Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands and 10 thousand times 10 thousand. In a loud voice they were saying: "Worthy is the **LAMB**, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and under the earth and on the sea and all that is in them, saying: "To Him who sits on the throne and to the **LAMB** be praise and honor and glory and power, **FOR EVER AND EVER**!" The 4 living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and **WORSHIPED**! {Why was not the holy spirit worshiped here along with the Father and Jesus??}
The **WORSHIP** of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ can also be found in Matthew 2:2,8,11; 14:33; 28:9,17 Luke 24:52 and John 9:38!! {Any worship of the holy spirit can not be found in God's Word!!}
And in Hebrews 1:1-3,6,8; Paul is inspired to write: "In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His being, sustaining all things by His powerful word... God says, "Let all God's angels **WORSHIP HIM**!!" and about His Son God says, "Your throne, **O GOD** will last for ever and ever!!"
John 1:18: No one has ever seen God, **BUT THE ONE AND ONLY SON**!! who is **HIMSELF GOD** and in closest relationship with the Father, has made Him known!!
Titus 2:13-14: We wait for the **BLESSED HOPE**--the glorious appearing of our great **GOD AND SAVIOR**, Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to glorify Himself a people that are **HIS VERY OWN**, eager to do what is good!
It is also very interesting to note that there will only be **TWO THRONES** for Jesus and His Father in the eternal heavenly New Jerusalem:
Revelation 22:3: **THE THRONE OF **GOD** AND OF THE LAMB** will be in the City!!! {The New Jerusalem} and His servants will serve Him.
Why doesn't the holy spirit or 7 spirits of God have a **THRONE** if he is God??? Why will there only be **TWO THRONES** in the eternal heavenly New Jerusalem??? and the holy spirit is not mentioned in the description of our eternal home in the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21:1-27 and Revelation 22:1-5!! And so God's Word clearly shows that the holy spirit does not have **ETERNAL DIVINITY**
Revelation 3:21: Jesus says, "To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with Me on **MY THRONE**, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on **HIS THRONE**!!
Revelation 5:13,14: Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: To Him who sits on the throne and to the **LAMB** be praise and honor and glory and power **FOR EVER AND EVER**!" The 4 Living Beings said, **AMEN** and the Elders fell down and worshiped!!
@Prophetic I wouldn't give LittleDavid any creedence. If you look in the previous topic God vs gods you'll see he is caught red handed in the worst kind of bold faced lie. He takes what you said, claiming he is quoting you with quotation marks and "end of quotation" statement. But he added his own words in the middle. LittleDavid is not to be trusted.
@LittleDavid; You say: "Sadlup most of your posts clearly reflect unorthodox disbeliefs." Wow! You really need to think about what you are saying! You mistranslate and misinterpret our Jewish Scriptures from pagan Greek and Egyptian perspectives to create a three headed God then accuse me of unorthodoxy! Lol!
In a lot of the Scripture that little David quotes that he claims refer to the holy spirit are actually the **SPIRIT OF THE FATHER** and the **SPIRIT OF CHRIST** and not to the holy spirit!! SUCH AS:
Romans 8:9: “However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the **SPIRIT OF CHRIST**, he does not belong to Him.”
Galatians 4:6: Because you are sons, God has sent forth the **SPIRIT OF HIS SON** into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!
In God's Word we must distinguish between the **SPIRIT OF THE FATHER**, the **SPIRIT OF CHRIST** and the holy spirit!!!
John 4:23,24: Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will **WORSHIP THE FATHER** *IN THE SPIRIT** and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the **FATHER** seeks. **GOD IS SPIRIT**, and **HIS {The Father's}WORSHIPERS** must worship the Spirit and in truth!
Romans 8:9 “However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the **SPIRIT OF CHRIST**, he does not belong to Him.”
Galatians 4:6: Because you are sons, God has sent forth the *SPIRIT OF HIS SON**INTO OUR HEARTS**, crying, “Abba! Father!”
2 Corinthians 13:5: Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that **CHRIST JESUS IS IN YOU**--unless, of course you fail the test?
Romans 8:9-11: If anyone does not have the **SPIRIT OF CHRIST**, they do not belong to Christ. But if **CHRIST IS IN YOU**, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the **SPIRIT OF HIM {THE FATHER} who raised Jesus from the dead is **LIVING IN YOU**{The Father}will also give life to your mortal bodies because of **HIS {The FATHER'S} SPIRIT** who lives in you!
}John 14::19,20,23: Jesus says, "Before long the world will not see me any more but you will see Me. Because I live you will also live. On that day you will realize that I am in My Father, and **YOU ARE IN ME**, and **I AM IN YOU**!!... Anyone who loves Me will obey My teaching. My Father will love them, and **WE** will come to them and **MAKE OUR HOME WITH THEM!!" {THEIR SPIRIT!!}
Revelation 3:19,20: Jesus says, "Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. so be earnest and repent. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door , **I WILL COME IN**!"{CHRIST'S SPIRIT}
Galatians 4:6: Because you are His sons, God sent the **SPIRIT OF HIS SON** INTO OUR HEARTS**, the Spirit who calls out "Abba, Father"!
**ONLY JESUS **BAPTIZES WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT** TO ALL THE FATHER HAS CHOSEN WHILE THE LIVING WORD OF GOD IS PREACHED OR READ**!!
Mark 1:7-8: John the Baptist said, "After me comes the One more powerful than I, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down an untie. I baptize with water but **HE WILL BAPTIZE YOU WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT**!"
John 1:32-34: Then John gave this testimony: "I saw the spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on Him, but the One who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the spirit come down and remain is the One who will **BAPTIZE WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT**.' I have seen and testify that this is God's Chosen One."
John 7:38-39: Jesus says, "Whoever believes in Me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow within them!" By this He meant the spirit, whom those who believed in Him were later to receive. Up to that time the spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
Jesus would not be glorified until he died, rose from the dead and ascended to heaven. Only then would he be glorified and only then would he "**BAPTIZE WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT**. Peter's words on Pentecost support this.
John 16:12-15: Jesus says, "I have much more to say to, more than you can now bear. But when he, the spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth. **HE WILL NOT SPEAK ON HIS OWN**, he will only speak what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify Me because it is **FROM ME** that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is Mine. That is why I said the spirit will **RECEIVE **FROM ME** WHAT HE WILL MAKE KNOWN TO YOU**!!"
Note: Jesus Christ is called the **LAMB** 30 times in the book of Revelation and the holy spirit is called the **7 SPIRITS** 4 times in Revelation:
Revelation 3:1: Jesus says, "These are the words of Him who **HOLDS** the **7 SPIRITS OF GOD**!" {See John 16:12-15 below!}
Revelation 4:5: In front of the {Father's} **THRONE** 7 lamps were blazing. These are the **7 SPIRITS OF GOD**.
Revelation 5:6: The **LAMB** had 7 horns and 7 eyes which are the **7 SPIRITS OF GOD** sent out into all the earth! {See John 16:12-15 above}
And so Jesus **HOLDS** the 7 spirits of God or holy spirit which **HE SENDS** out into all the earth when He **BAPTIZES WITH THE HOLY SPIRIY OR 7 SPIRITS OF GOD** all the new converts whom the Father has chosen!
Revelation 3:1,14;19-21: Jesus says, "These are the words of Him who holds the 7 spirits of God... These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Ruler of God's creation... Those whom I love I discipline. So be earnest and repent. Here I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I {MY SPIRIT} will come in and eat with him and he with Me. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with Me on **MY THRONE**, just as I overcame and sat down with **MY FATHER ON HIS THRONE**!! These are the **ONLY 2 THRONES** in the eternal New Jerusalem as per Revelation 22:3 below!!!
Revelation 22:3:: The **THRONE OF GOD** and of the **LAMB**will be in the City {In our Eternal Home in the New Jerusalem}
Revelation 21:22-23: I did not see a temple in the City, because the Lord God Almighty and the **LAMB** are its temple. The City does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light and the **LAMB** is its Lamp!!
It is interesting to note that the holy spirit or 7 spirits are not even mentioned once in the description of our eternal home in the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21:1-27 and Revelation 22::1-5, and that there will be only **2 THRONES** for the Father and Jesus the **LAMB** in the eternal New Jerusalem!!
Acts 1:4,5,8: Jesus said to 120 saints, "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the **GIFT** My Father promised, which you have heard Me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be **BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT**!"... You will receive **POWER** when the holy spirit comes on you; and you will be **MY WITNESSES**, in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth!"
Acts 2:1-3: When the Day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed like tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the holy spirit! These 120 saints as per Acts 1:13, were already **BORN AGAIN**!
Acts 10:44-46: While Peter was speaking these words {The Word of God in Acts 10:34-43} the holy spirit came on all who heard the message The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the **GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT** had been poured out on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
Acts 11:15-16: Peter said as I was speaking the word of God, the holy spirit came on them as he had come on us. Then I remembered what the Lord Jesus had said {In Acts 1:5} "John baptized with water but you will be **BAPTIZED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT**!"
I Peter 1:23; For you have been **BORN AGAIN**, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, **THROUGH THE LIVING AND ENDURING WORD OF GOD**!
John 6:37,39,44,65: Jesus says, "**ALL** that the Father gives Me **WILL** come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will **NEVER** drive away... And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall **LOSE NONE** of all that He has given Me, but raise them up at the Last Day.... No one can come to Me **UNLESS** the Father who sent Me **DRAWS HIM**, and I will raise him up at the Last Day!!... No one can come to Me **UNLESS** the Father has **ENABLED THEM**!!"
So John the Baptist baptized with water but only **JESUS BAPTIZES WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT** as per Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:7-8, Luke 3:16 and John 1:33!!
**SO ONLY JESUS **BAPTIZES WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT** TO ALL THE FATHER HAS CHOSEN WHILE THE LIVING WORD OF GOD IS PREACHED AND READ**
After you are **BORN AGAIN** when **JESUS BAPTIZES OR IMMERSES YOU WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT** the you will want to obey all of God's approximately 400 New covenant commands. One of these commands is to be immersed or baptized with water to show that you have been **BAPTIZED AN IMMERSED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT BY JESUS**! When we go down into the waters of baptism and then emerge from the water, it is symbolic of our being IMMERSED WITH CHRIST**, and then rising to new life.
