The greatest fallacy in Christianity today which causes a great deal of strife amongst believers and non-believers is the erroneous belief that abortion is in fact murder. This is a fallacy and is not supported by any verse of scripture. In fact there are many verses that state otherwise.
I debate this with Christians regularly and their blindness to truth is intolerable. The inability of Christians to accept truth when it's very clear in the Bible, is disappointing.
First of all God is a Spirit (John 4:24). God is not a physical being. He does not have have a physical body.
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
God is not a physical being so he did not have the ability to physically breath into Adam the "breath of life" This verse really means is God gave Adam the ability to breath oxygen through his nostrils.
Further proof of the "Breath of Life" simply referring to the oxygen we breath is in
Genesis 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
Genesis 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
Genesis 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land , died.
Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
There's no doubt that "breath of life" referrers to the air we breath, not a literal event that took place.
In Ezekiel 37:8-10 we watch as God re-animates dead bones into living soldiers, but the passage makes the interesting note that they were not alive as persons until their first breath. Likewise, in Genesis 2:7, Adam had a human form and a vibrant new body but he only becomes a fully-alive human person after God makes him breathe.
It is neither a sin nor wrong to kill a living creature that does not have a soul. It's only a sin and murder when one kills a living and breathing human being. A living and breathing human being regardless of age has become a living soul.
A baby in the womb is a living creature without a soul. A baby does not breath oxygen (breath of life) until he/she has been birthed into the world and is breathing the air with his/her own lungs. While in the womb the baby receives oxygenated blood through the umbilical cord. The baby is living but is not yet a immortal being with an immortal soul.
Abortion is simply an induced miscarriage. The statistics state that 1 in 3 pregnancies end in a miscarriage. These miscarriages occur due to absolutely no fault of the mother. They happen for a wide variety of reasons and many miscarriages that occur can't be explained. But if you're a Christian and you believe God controls all things and you believe unborn babies have a soul, you'd also have to believe God is a murderer. If God allows a baby with a soul to die and he has the ability to prevent this but allows it anyway, that'd be no different then a mother inducing a miscarriage.
As an inferior creator God has given rights, responsibilities, abilities, and permission for 9 months to terminate the life we've created if we see fit to do so. This aligns itself with the doctrine of God. God as the supreme creator has the right to terminate his creation at will. He has this right as the supreme creator. We as an inferior creator have a limited period of 9 months to destroy our creation. At the time of birth when the baby starts breathing on his/her own, they become a living soul. The baby becomes an immortal person with an immortal soul. Our inferior creator rights have been expunged.
A baby didn't even have any value until a month of age.
LEVITICUS 27:6 And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. Likewise, in Numbers 3:15 a census was commanded, but the Jews were told only to count those one month old and above anything less, particularly a fetus, was not counted as a human person.
Mister, are you kidding me? Except for the quotes from the Bible not much of what you stated here makes one bit of sense to me. I'm not an educated man but it seems to me that a mother with child in the womb is that child's life support. Whatever she eats drinks or does affects that child, they are part of each other sharing all things are they not? If the mothers heart stops both lives would end, if she were to stop breathing the same, if Mom doesn't eat both suffer because they are one and part of the same body. Now answer me this... if the mother has a soul (being over the age of one) as you stated, would not her soul be a part of that child also? I'm hesitant to even send this post for fear of reading more of this brilliant logic you have graced us with...peace in Christ brother
You have no children, you want no children, and you think you have the ability to speak on this topic because.....????
There is an old saying that says "Any fool can find a passage of scripture to back him up." I think this applies perfectly in your case.
Let's look at a few other scriptures:
"Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you even at my mother's breast. From birth I was cast upon you; from my mother's womb you have been my God" (Psalm 22:9-10).
(You said that a baby isn't doesn't have a soul until they breath the breath of life - but this scripture is saying that "IN THE WOMB you have been my God." I think this proves you wrong, but let's keep going...)
"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" (Psalm 139:13-16).
(Read this again - "ALL THE DAYS ORDAINED FOR ME WERE WRITTEN IN YOUR BOOK BEFORE ONE OF THEM CAME TO BE." If God was "okay" with us destroying our young, why would He bother to write our days that would never come in His book?)
"Listen to me, O house of Jacob, all you who remain of the house of Israel, you whom I have upheld since you were conceived, and have carried since your birth. Even to your old age and gray hairs I am he, I am he who will sustain you. I have made you and I will carry you; I will sustain you and I will rescue you" (Isaiah 46:3-4).
(Are you reading this? YOU WHOM I HAVE UPHELD SINCE YOU WERE CONCEIVED. NOT since you breathed the breath of life.)
"The word of the LORD came to me, saying, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations" (Jeremiah 1:4-5).
(Before you were born I set you apart. What did God set apart? A living "thing?" A "thing" with no soul?)
"When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy" (Luke 1:41-42, 44).
(The baby in her womb "leaped for joy" upon hearing her voice. Have you ever seen a rock leap for joy? I didn't think so.)
I'm sorry, this may be a little harsh. But I AM a parent, and it's one thing to hear this bologna from the world, but from another Christian is just outrageous.
You are by FAR very wrong in your beliefs and I'll be praying for you.
And another thing - "We as an inferior creator" - WHAT? I would love to see you create something. Anything. Here - I'll hand you some empty space and let's see what you come up with. Hmmm....still looks like empty space to me.
God did NOT give us the permission to destroy ANYTHING that HE has created. We aren't inferior creators. We were ENTRUSTED with HIS creation - to be the caretakers of it. Not to destroy it in an allotted time frame if it doesn't fit into the schedule WE have made for ourselves. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for a woman to EVER abort a child. I don't care if it's rape, if the mother's life is in danger, if the child will come out with deformities....this is GOD'S choice.
ALSO, miscarriages do not mean that God is a murderer. God's ways are NOT our ways, and His thoughts are NOT our thoughts. Don't think for one second that you can look into the ways of God and judge HIM. Every tiny thing that God does is in COMPLETE Righteousness and Holiness.
I'm sorry to you and to everyone reading this, but this one really touched a button with me. We are to stand for those who can't stand for themselves. I will not sit by while a brother tries to tell us it's okay to kill our children.
I just want to applaud Linnie41, thank you for rebuking this misguided soul. We all need to be in prayer for him and others who share this same view. I can guarantee you that nothing bad ever comes from God ie: miscarriages. This and other things like it I firmly believe come from satan in an attempt to draw us away from our relationship with God.
You say that a baby does not have a soul until they take that first " breath of life" , isn't the mother in fact breathing those breaths for the child until it can do so on it's own. Should we also kill anyone who is on a respirator since they can no longer breathe for themselves.
As for your use of sripture, 2 Timothy 3:16 says that all scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. It is not until we fallable humans with a religious toxicity take those scriptures and pervert them to fit our own twisted viewpoints that they can become dangerous.
I will certainly be praying for you my brother. God Bless.
Linnie41 and gracefeedme pretty much said every point I was thinking of while reading this discussion's beginning comment. God bless you, and all here and everywhere who counter such fallicious and disgraceful comments. Because I think all the biblical points I know have already been said--and with such passion from these Christians--the only thing else to be brought is the scientific part.
First off, science, like everything else, is under the law of God and not to be misused, just as biblical scripture is not to be twisted. There are four requirements to be considered alive--though I don't think viruses fall in so all that could happen would be less requirement--and they are: metabolism, growth, reproduction (cell division) and response to stimuli. This is in every science book I've ever read and why even Agnostics know that the baby is alive even in the womb.
P.S. Further praise to God for Linnie's truth. I have never met another woman who believes so securely that a baby is a blessing, one we have no right to kill even at the cost of our own life during pregnancy. May you be blessed with as many little ones as God so deems!
Elcapitan you said �It is neither a sin nor wrong to kill a living creature that does not have a soul.� The key word here is KILL.
Genesis 2:28 God blessed them, and God said to them, �Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.�
Psalms 8:6 � 8.8
You have given them dominion over the works of your hands; you have put all things under their feet, all sheep and oxen, and also the beasts of the field, the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, whatever passes along the paths of the sea.
As humans, we have dominion over the creatures of the earth. A fetus is not a �creature� as the Bible describes a creature. A human life is highly significant to God - far over that of animals or any creature. I do not believe that God gives us the authority/choice over the life or death of a human life (in terms of a fetus).
You referenced Genesis 2:7 (And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul) and you also referenced Genesis 6:17 (And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.).
God is the only one who has the breath of life � not in any way, shape or form does a human have that power. That also does not grant humans the power or authority to destroy it.
You also said, �There's no doubt that "breath of life" refers to the air we breathe, not a literal event that took place.�
Yes, we are living, breathing things � but the Bible saying the breath of life is a lot more figurative than just the fact that we breathe. God creates us in His image as it is said in Genesis 1:27 (So God created humankind in his image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.). Humans, and not any other earthly creatures, are made in the direct image and spirit of God.
I think the entire creation of a human is part of the �breath of life� we receive. The way you describe it IS taking it in the literal sense � of the air we breathe. The way you describe it would be saying that at any point of a pregnancy (even at 9 months) an abortion would be okay because the baby is not yet breathing the air by itself but through its mother.
Phoenyx, I am extremely passionate about being pro-life. The atrocities committed against the unborn are shocking and repulsive to say the least.
I found out I was pregnant with twins, but I had some heart problems at the time. My doctor told me I would do fine with the pregnancy, but most likely wouldn't make it through labor. He advised me to abort one, if not both of them. I told him I would die for my children - why would the two inside be any different? I was driving home, and I was scared. I trust God, but I was really scared. The "life promise" came on the Christian radio station I listen to, and it was Isaiah 41:13. It's still my favorite scripture - "For I am the Lord, your God, who takes hold of your right hand and says to you, Do not fear; I will help you." I knew beyond a doubt that God had spoken to me and I had nothing to worry about. And I didn't worry about it again. When I went into labor and my blood pressure bottomed out, I knew everything would be fine. When they were RUNNING down the hallway to get me into surgery, I knew everything would be fine. When I heard the doctor yelling, "We're losing her!!" I knew everything would be fine.
My twins weighed 5lbs 7oz and 6lbs 2oz. They spent absolutely no time at all in intensive care. We all went home from the hospital three days later. AND, to this day, I haven't had any problems or needed any medication for my heart.
I don't normally have pictures of my kids online, but I did post a picture of the twins on my profile so you can see what the doctor told me I should destroy to save my own life.
When everything seems stacked against us, we need to hold on to the promises of God. He has the final say. We need to just grin and let HIM bear it.
The baby and the mother are two distinct and separate living organisms and do not share a soul at any time. A human baby does not become a living soul until she/he is breathing on it's own. The mother's soul is her own and is not shared with the unborn baby.
There is absolutely no scriptural evidence supporting your view. There is however many scriptures which support that a baby acquires a soul at it's first breath (breath of life). Up until it is breathing on it's own, it is no different than any other soul less mammal.
If a baby is removed from it's mother prior to 28 weeks that baby will not have fully functional lungs and will be required to be put on a life support system. If a baby is no longer attached to the mother and is instead attached to man made machine, would the mother's soul clone itself and go with baby? So there'd be the same soul in two bodies? Where would mother's cloned soul go when the baby acquires it's own after it's first breath?
That's completely and utterly ridiculous. Before commenting, I'd suggest finding scripture evidence which supports such logic before posting such irrational ideas.
A human life becomes valuable when it becomes a mortal being with a immortal soul. Up until this occurs this life is no different than a common household pet because it doesn't have a soul.
My not having nor desiring to have children in no way inhibits my ability to distinguish Biblical fact from human invented fiction.
It would appear the exact opposite be truth, that those who have children or desire to have children are blinded by their own finite logic about the value of such and are incapable of accepting Biblical fact and truth about the insignificance and non value of infant and unborn babies.
I've provided scriptures which I believe thoroughly support that unborn babies don't have souls and that infants less than a month old have no value. The view I've presented here has scriptural backing.
Psalms 22:10 says, "I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly." The verse says, "from", not "in". God knew David well before conception but until David was from his mother's belly he did not have a soul and hence he did not have a God. Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. By God's definition a human being is not alive until they have souls and they don't acquire a soul until their breathing on their own.
EZEKIEL 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
The bones did not live until they breathed.
Regarding the verses you responded with.
Such verses would be applicable if I disputed when life began. I do not dispute when life begins. I believe life begins at conception. This is true in all mammals. However my dispute is with when a life becomes a "living soul". That is a immortal human being with an immortal soul. I believe and feel the scriptures support my view, that a baby becomes a living soul at it's first breath not before.
So abortion would in fact not be murder because unborn babies don't have a soul. An unborn baby is no different than any other soulless mammal. It is perfectly acceptable to kill a horse, cow, cat, dog, etc... It's not murder, likewise it's not murder to kill an unborn baby because an unborn baby has yet to breath and become a "living soul."
The God of this world has blinded your mind to truth. I'll be praying that God will open your mind and allow you to accept scriptural facts.
