Thread: A Doctrine of Deception that May Lead Many to Destruction...
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A Doctrine of Deception that May Lead Many to Destruction...
Posted : 18 Mar, 2009 10:29 PM
I am constantly confronted by people who have been terribly mislead by this popular eartickling notion that
todays churches will escape persecution & tribulation by being raptured away before hardtimes hit.
The Bible & Christ Himself very clearly teach us that this pre-tribulation "rapture" is not true.
Everyone knows Matthew 24 where Yahshua Himself says that Immediately AFTER the Tribulation He will send His Angels to Gather up His Elect.
Why is it that somany "Christians" listen to mens words, & refuse to believe Christ?
I think that this doctrine concerning the "Rapture of the Church"is a doctrine that seems to help seperate the sheep from the goats.
It is not as important as some other things like Keeping the Sabbath Holy, but it's obviously an issue that people have very strong feelings about
But they also have very differing views about this rapture subject too.
But the Truth is That There Is No Such Thing As 2 Different Truths. If there are 2 Different Doctrines, then 1 Is Truth, & 1 is a lie.
I am not saying that if your beliefs about the rapture are wrong, then you are going to hell...But I do believe that in this case,
If you believe the lie then you are setting yourself up for a fall.
The doctrine of the pretribulation rapture of the church-in my opinion-is one of the most destructive doctrines within todays apostate churches
because it will cause millions of mislead christians to lose their faith at the critical time when they actually need their faith more than ever!
So that is even my 1st argument against a large group of apathetic Christians who refuse to even discuss the subject by calling themselves "Pan-tribbers".
They say that everything will "Pan out in the end" so its not worth discussing.
But if the "2nd Coming of Christ" is not an important part of the actual "Gospel of Christ" then I just dont know what is! Its the Blessed Hope Itself.
I think Revelation would label "Pan-tribber" Christians as "Lukewarm"...
Then there is a small group of Christians who call themselves "Mid-tribbers".
Their general theory is that Christians experience Tribulation but not Wrath.
And that the Midpoint of the 70th Week is that point where the change happens.
Its a pleasant compromising theory that gives both sides a little wiggle room.
I think Mid-tribbers are mostly post-tribbers who just got tired of arguing!
But, the Whole Truth can not be derived by adding 1 Half Truth & 1 half lie.
There can be no compromise of the Truth when we are talking about Gospel Truths.
Any doctrine contrary to the the Gospel of Christ is a doctrine of antichrist.
Paul even said "if any man preaches a different gospel, let him be accursed"!
And Pauls teachings on this subject of the "rapture" are very very clear too
Everything about the pre-tribulation rapture is Totally Contrary To Pauls Words.
I cant understand for a second how or why pretribbers can say the exact opposite, & with complete sincerity, & a totally straight faces! It is mind boggling to me!
Concerning OUR GATHERING TOGETHER TO HIM Paul specifically said: Let no man deceive you in any way for that day will not come except
First the man of sin be revealed, who sits in the temple, saying he is God. (2 Thessalonians 2)...(& everyone? agrees that is halfway through the 70th Week)
NEWS FLASH FOLKS: You all get to meet antichrist before you go!You even get to see him commit the Abomination of Desolation.
Christ also Specifically tells us WHEN He Will Send Forth His Angels TO GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE 4 WINDS OF HEAVEN in Matt 24:
IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS...
and then shall appear the Sign of the Son of Man, in heaven..
and they shall See the Son of Man COMING in the Clouds
of Heaven with Power & Great Glory..
BREAKING NEWS: Christ Himself Denies the "Pretribulation Rapture". By Clearly & Openly Proclaiming The POST(AFTER)TRIBULATION GATHERING
Why are there so many among you who insist that this happens BEFORE?
But the Bible is even way more specific than that concerning this Great Gospel of the 2nd Coming & the Transformation that occurs at that time.
Concerning this Transformation, We are told in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 that: "Behold I Show You A Mystery" "We shall not all sleep(die), but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
AT THE LAST TRUMPET, For The TRUMPET SHALL SOUND and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and We shall Be Changed".
And When is that? At the 1st Trumpet? No, At THE LAST TRUMPET. Revelation 10:7 also talks about the Mystery of the 7th( Last) Trumpet, saying that:
...in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the Mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
But I guess there are those who try to say that this Coming is different than His secret "Thief" like coming that no one can ever Know the day or hour of.
We often hear about this secret? "Thief like" coming from 1 Thesalonians 5:2-3: For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape...
But it goes on to say: But YE BRETHREN ARE NOT IN DARKNESS THAT THAT DAY SHOULD OVERTAKE YOU AS A THIEF, (1 Thesalonians 5:4)...
In fact Christ Himself Reveals When that "Thief Like" Coming Is. "Behold, I Come As A THIEF. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame"...Well Duh, this should clear things up!!
I mean, if He would just give us some indication of When This Is, It Would All Be Setttled!...I mean wouldn't it? You would think that Christ Himself would know...and not mislead us..
I mean this is even Christ Speaking in the Book of Revelation Itself Chapter 16 Verse 15..I definately think a little study here may give clues that might even reveal the timing.
Hmmm...How about looking at the very next verse, to give us a little context..Rev 16:16:
"And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon". Case Closed! UIant IT?
It is just like Christ said in Matthew 24 where we started from or Mark 13:19: "For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation
which God created unto this time, neither shall be".
Mark 13:20 "And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days".
And we know this is before His Return because Mark 13 verse 21 continues by saying "And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ;
or,Lo, he is there; believe him not"...And I say to you if any man tells you that Jesus Christ will return to "rapture" his followers away Before the Tribulation Begins, Believe Him Not.
Wasnt it Yahshua Who said It is better to have a millstone hung around your neck & be thrown into the sea rather than to lead one of Christs Children astray...
A Doctrine of Deception that May Lead Many to Destruction...
Posted : 19 Mar, 2009 12:03 PM
I Thessalonians chapter 4.
But I do not want you to be ignorant brothers, concerning those who have died lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with HIM THOSE WHO DIED IN JESUS and are in heaven with HIm.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that WE WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN HERE ON EARTH UNTIL THE COMING OF THE LORD, will by no means precede those who are dead.
For the Lord Himself will DESCEND FROM HEAVEN WITH A SHOUT WITH THE VOICE OF AN ARCHANGEL, AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE FIRST.
THEN WE WHO ARE ALIVE AND ARE STILL HERE ON EARTH WILL/SHALL BE CAUGHT UP (which means RAPTURED to gether with them (Those who are in Christ who died) in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air,. And thus we shall/will always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
I think Isaiah also speaks about the tribulation and the establishment of the Millennial kingdom upon the earth in chapter 24
Dan, I can't see where the word says that we who believe in Christ will be here on earth during the tribulation. Help me undersatnd what you speak, and see what you see... ;O)
A Doctrine of Deception that May Lead Many to Destruction...
Posted : 19 Mar, 2009 12:39 PM
Daniel,
Thank you for this teaching. I used to be pre trib until I was challenged by a couple of brothers on why I believed such. Now I do believe that we will be here through the rapture. Walter pointed me to a website answersinrevelation.org where there is a very good study on the pre and post trib positions.
The bottom line for me is that never before in history has God ever raptured His people while punishing the ungodly, he protected them instead. I do agree that many who believe that they will be raptured pre trib will fall away from the faith, thinking that the promises of God are not true, when this was never promised in the first place.
A Doctrine of Deception that May Lead Many to Destruction...
Posted : 19 Mar, 2009 02:01 PM
Hi Ella:waving:
Good to see again...You've been kinda quiet lately...Is all well with you:prayingm:
It took me a while to figure out what your argument was here. Especially since you were using some of my favorite verses...
I hope that you dont think that I am denying that there will be a Resurrection of the dead in Christ, & A Transformation of the Living At The Gathering ( Andii have no Qualms against The Word "Rapture" either)
But I think that I finally figured out that your argument is the fact that If We "Return" with Yahshua..Then we Would Have Had to be "Raptured" Up Sometime Prior to the Return.
If that is your Only Argument then I think We can clear it up pretty easily by looking at the word "Meet" becasuse there are a few different words for "Meet" in the Greek...
In reference to the "Meeting" in The Air we see that this "Meet" is the the same type of a Meeting as it was when Yahshua entered Jerusalem & all the people Went Out Of The City to G0 MEET Him, (spreading palm branches as they went)...But Then They Immediately RETURNED WITH HIM TOO...U C?
Other than that I think I will have to wait for another question, beacause I thought I stated my case pretty clearly...and it is Me who is waiting for someone to show Me One Single Verse That Says We Will Be Raptured Away BEFORE THE TRIBULATION Or BEFORE the antichrist appears..Because every verse I know of says the opposite...
So Please Any One, Do Tell ME What YOU SEE, that says Anything Different..Where does it say "Immmediately BEFORE the Tribulation. Show Me a verses that says That Day Will Come BEFORE the man of lawlwessness is revealed.
I JUST DONT UNDERSTAND ONE SINGLE THING ABOUT WHY ANYONE COULD BELIEVE IN A PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE..
I SAY ITS JUST NOT IN THE BIBLE...IF SO...SHOW ME PLEASE. HE WILL NOT KEEP US "FROM" TRIBULATION..
BUT HE WILL KEEP US "THROUGH" TRIBULATION...THAT WILL BE MIRACULOUS..:dancingp:.WHY WOULD U WANT TO MISS THAT!!! OK, I probably shouldnt be So Enthusiastic...But Yahshua said: When you see these things lift up you head:bouncy:, For Your Redemption Draweth Nigh:dancingp::dancingp::laugh::rocknroll::applause::bouncy::bow:
A Doctrine of Deception that May Lead Many to Destruction...
Posted : 19 Mar, 2009 02:38 PM
Thank YOU Lydia,
Not Just for Your thoughts Here...But for Your Inspiring Testimony that I saw yesterday... So Happy to see that you made it to The LORD & Are Growing In HIS WORD so rapidly.
Yes, I think You Hit The Very Crux of the Matter with your observation that many who believe that they will be raptured away before the tribulation will fall away from the faith, thinking that the promises of YHWH are not true, when this was never promised in or By HIS WORD in the first place.
And I might add, Will they not be inclined to follow the anti-christ at that time? Or, without Faith, they will even be FORCED to follow him, or die as Martyrs if their faith is at least that strong...
And yet in the opposite way, IF we were somehow wrong:ROFL: then what harm was done? If we prepare for the worst & get raptured away instead...Well, at least maybe we left some survival supplies & Bibles behind for our unsaved Loved Ones huh?
But We arent wrong, because the Bible Doesn't lie...
And it Seems Pretty Clear on this issue of the Gathering.
A Doctrine of Deception that May Lead Many to Destruction...
Posted : 20 Mar, 2009 08:41 AM
Hi Dan:waving:
Glad you asked.LOL... I've not had much time to be on here, been busy with a lot of church duties in the community. So I only have time to pop in and out. Thanks for asking...
I suppose what I don't understand in what you're saying, where does it say in Matthew chapter 24, that we, the beleivers, who are the saints of God, and are the church, will endure the tribulations as according to your understanding.
If we connect the dots of scripture in Matthew chapter 24, is not Jesus clearly speaking about when the tribulation begans, the coming of the anti-christ, and not the Rapture or carrying away of the church? And the days of the "elect" which is the church, will be shortened (verse 22), which would go to say that this is when Christ will return for the saints (the church) as Paul speaks about in I Thessalonians chapter 4, the coming of the Lord.
So then how would you explain this? In I Thessalonians Paul is explaining the day of the Lord, the coming of the Lord is outlined, the carrying away of the church(rapture) and so states that the church will be carried away (Raptured) before the judgment and destruction and the warth of God on the earth. Which, we who believe will be saved from this suffering of the Great Tribulation the unsaved will have to endure, if you connect Matthew chapter 24, I Thessalonians chapter 4, and 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, and of course all that Daniel has to say.
So I'm asking where do you find in scripture that says the church will endure the suffering of the tribulation? All that I read indicates that because our days will be shorten, the church (body of believers), will not have to endure all the tribulation and judgment of the wicked that will take place. Paul even tells us that because we believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, we are saved from the coming wrath of God.
A Doctrine of Deception that May Lead Many to Destruction...
Posted : 21 Mar, 2009 12:20 PM
Good thread! If there is something small that we weren't meant to fuss about and make into a mountain.. God knows we'll do it.
Church walls will not protect anyone from God come judgment day, Jesus even taught to go out and preach to all nations, rather than the opposite of building up walls. It's these little tiny small things turned into a mountain that eventually establish walls of division.
Yes, the devil sits in the front row at church and knows the bible better than most people claiming Christ.. it's why the body/family in Christ needs to break down all the walls dividing them.
Be as one mind, be of like accord.. and very importantly.. keep your answers always yea or nay/yes or no.. because what more comes of this.. comes from below. It would be safe to conclude that asking questions to another on this site, or anywhere in life that can only have a yes/no answer will help keep them away from what comes from below.
"What is your relationship with Jesus like?" is obviously a question that does not have a simple yes or no answer.. but this question should always be joy to answer!
A Doctrine of Deception that May Lead Many to Destruction...
Posted : 21 Mar, 2009 12:52 PM
Ella, Thanks for Sticking With It here...I'm still trying to figure out the whole mind set behind this whole concept of a pre-tribulation rapture before the Great Gathring Together OF HI S ELECT In The Sky. And Why So Many Cant See That IT IS THE SAME EVENT..
I am not afraid of YHWHs Judgements upon the earth. Judgement Of & On the Earth Is What BRINGS JUSTICE TO
THE ELECT. Nor Am I Fearful of HIS WRATH Which Brings Justice To Us. It Is In Defense Of US that HIS WRATH Comes...Is It Not? I For One Hope that I am Around To See HIS WRATH :boxing:Manifested upon the earth..:yay:.Dont You?
But Lets get to your specific question of:
Where & How does it say in Matthew 24 that we go through the Tribulation?
Well, lets see (let me count the ways..NOT)... But..
Matthew 24 tells us that:
After the rise of false christs..& various descriptions of wars, & famines & earthquakes which are just the beiginning of the birth pangs...
THEN in Matthew 24 we see in these simple condensed(paraphrased) verses>>
24:9..Then they will Deliver You Up To Tribulation, & Will Kill You, & you will hated by all nations, on account of My Name...(sounds like tribulation to me)
24:13..But the one who Endures To The End, It is He Who Shall Be saved.
HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY ENDURE TO THE END IF YOU ARE NOT EVEN IN IT?
24:15..Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation...
24:21..THEN there shall be a Great Tribulation which has not occured since the beginning of the world...
24:22..(But For The Sake Of The ELECT Those days shall be cut short)
THE ELECT ARE OBVIOUSLY IN THE TRIBULATION TO SEE THESE THINGS
(And HIS COMING Right Before Armaggeddon is What Cuts It Short)
24:23..Then if Anyone says, Here is the Christ, Or There He is, Do Not Believe them..
24:27..for just as the lightning falshes from the east even to the west So SHALL THE COMING of The SON OF MAN BE.
24:28..(Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather).
THE ELECT ARE EVEN STILL WAITING FOR THE "RETURN" AT THIS POINT!
MATTHEW 24:29..BUT IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS
24:30..THEN THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN WILL APPEAR IN THE SKY..
24:31..AND HE WILL SEND FORTH HIS ANGELS...AND THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT..FROM ONE END OF THE SKY TO THE OTHER.
I REALLY DONT KNOW WHAT TO SAY, OR HOW TO EXPLAIN THIS, TO ANY ONE WHO CAN NOT SEE THAT THIS GATHERING IN THE SKY-IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION-IS THEIR BLESSED HOPE THAT THEY CALL THE "RAPTURE".
WHERE IS THERE ANY SCRIPTURE THAT IMPLIES IN ANY WAY SOME SORTY OF SECRET RAPTURE 1ST, BEFORE THIS GATHERING IN THE SKY OF HIS ELECT?
ELLA, You Seem to be Trying to use 1st Thesalonians 4 To prove that there actually is a Resurection Prior to the 2nd Coming??!??!??
And that these ones resurrected prior to the 2nd coming are the ones who were "Raptured up" sometime before this Great Gathering???
And yet we see here that the only ones spoken of here prior to the "Transformation" of Those Alive in Christ is the Rising of the Dead in Christ..(who's Spirrits are actually already with Christ but not yet in Glorified (Transformed)form)...
A Doctrine of Deception that May Lead Many to Destruction...
Posted : 21 Mar, 2009 02:16 PM
Hello "Jesus Is My King"...I guess this subject of the Return of Your King & Your Reunion With Him Must Be The Blessed Hope Itself..To Someone Like You Huh?...Is It Not?
So I guess If there was something small that we weren't meant to fuss about and make into a mountain..
Then This Is NOT One Of Them Is It?
All False Doctrine Needs To Be Confronted Head On &
So IF It's "these little tiny small things turned into a mountain" that eventually establish walls of division.
...SO BE IT..
There Is No Straddling the Fence on Some Things
Because Missing The Truth Can Lead You To the lie.
So Do you Really Think This Shouldn't Be Talked About?
You can just answer with Your Yes or No if you prefer...
A Doctrine of Deception that May Lead Many to Destruction...
Posted : 21 Mar, 2009 04:30 PM
Hello Jesus is my king,
You said: Be as one mind, be of like accord.. and very importantly.. keep your answers always yea or nay/yes or no.. because what more comes of this.. comes from below. It would be safe to conclude that asking questions to another on this site, or anywhere in life that can only have a yes/no answer will help keep them away from what comes from below.
I say, Don't you think you are a wee bit out of context there with the whole yes/no thing? Seeing as Jesus was teaching about taking oaths, what you just put forth is a false teaching, probably due to a desire for political correctness. If you give up the worldly views, you will gain understanding of the things of God.
Now let's look at this unity thing you are talking about. Don't you think Jesus knew what would happen? Of course He did, He knew it at the time. He warned us in Matthew;
10:34
"Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.
10:35
For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law';
10:36
and 'a man's enemies will be those of his own household.'
If you want to know when and how unity will be achieved, read Zephaniah 3:9.
The pre-trib theory or sneaky rapture is for those who do not dive into the Word themselves as much and rely on theologians to come up with something that sounds good. I don't know that it is a blatant deception or just an oversimplification for those endless end-times questions.
The basic idea is that God makes a way of escape and He also makes a way where there is no way.
When they wanted to kill Jesus He walked through their midst untouched so that everything would be fulfilled. I believe in the second coming too, but not the sneaky rapture theory
