Thread: falling out of Gods grace, commiting suicide, sinners of the bible
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falling out of Gods grace, commiting suicide, sinners of the bible
Posted : 1 Mar, 2009 03:51 PM
"The word says, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is UNFORGIVEABLE, will not be forgiven says Jesus, and I think it means just that!... no matter how you pray. The word say that any one that if a person falls away from the turh of the gspel and the doctrine of Jesus Christ, who once confessed Jesus, and they trun to another gospel, no matter how you pray for that person it will be impossible to restore that person again or bring them back to repentance, seeing that they have crucified for themsleves, Christ again on the cross and put Him to shame. In otherwords made God a liar. Hebrews chapter 6." etcallhome in another topic.
i have to disagree... there are many who have fallen away from the truth and the doctrine of Jesus Christ and have fallin for other another false belief... i am one.. when i was younger about 16 i accepted Jesus as my savior, went to church quite a bit, and i believed myself a christian... but as i got older i fell away from his truths and doctrine, and i fell into the false belief, that i could party and act how ever i liked and do what i want, and still be considered a christian... i basicly rejected jesus and i didnt even know it, but because God never stopped loving me, and i was sealed in him, i was slowly convicted over time... i felt ashamed...
i fell in and out of Gods grace like at least 30 times... every time i did, i thought that God didnt love me. according to the arminian view, God loved me, he loved me not, he loved me, he loved me not, he loved me, he loved me not. i was saved, i was saved not, i was saved, i was saved not, and finally i was saved(for now). that dont make sense... who saved me? Jesus? or myself... according to the arminian view it was myself. it was i that accepted god, thus saving myself... and it was i that jumped out of Gods hand, thus damning myself... and on and on and on. that dont make sense at all... God always loved me, and everytime i fell out, it was him that brought me back... in the back of my mind i had this nudge that turned into a push...
also i dont believe that commiting suicide is a damnable sin... people say this because they believe that if you commit suicide, you cant ask for Gods forgiveness, thus your damned to hell. well, then if thats the case you better make sure you havent forgotten to pray for any sins before you die, and just hope you dont sin 5 seconds before you die... do you ask for forgiveness right after you sin? you might want to start now if you havnt... dont put off untill, bed time to pray for any sins you have commited. you might not make it untill then...
you see, Jesus died for ALL of the sins, commited in the past, present and the future... your sins have already been forgiven... do you not think that Jesus is capable for forgiving a sin untill its actually commited... if God is all knowing, then he definitly can forgive you of a sin before you even commit it... if your human mind can grasp this, God forgave you before you were born... before the beginning of time he forgave you. Just like grace through the Death of Jesus was planned out before the beginning of time. God doesnt react to anything... you dont sin, and then he reacts by forgiving you. no he already was way ahead of you. Gods plan for salvation was not a plan he made after realizing how hopeless we were. it was planned out from before the beginning. God didnt react to soddom and gomorrah... he already knew about them, and already had a plan. he also knew abraham would plead for Soddom and Gomorrah, and his plan was the same...
we have stop bringing god down to our human understanding of things. so if your a christian, and you commit suicide (which there shouldnt be any reason), God has already forgiven you of that sin. again, this is not an excuse to commit suicide. i thought of only one example in which i would commit suicide. i have heard how soldiers will carry a pill, incase they get captured, they will take it to kill himself, so he avoids torture, which can very well convince him to give away information which would cause harm to his fellow soldiers, not to mention they would most likely kill him after they got all the information out of him.
i also know someone who relative commited suicide because of the extreme emount of pain he was dealing with, and he was dieing anyways. but he hurried the process... he wasnt a christian, but i can see how a christian can sin in that sense.
also i always hear about these sins that if you commit you wont go to heaven. like if you commit murder, or if you have an affair. if you commit these sins you fell out of Gods grace.
anyone notice that almost all of the hero's in the bible commited these sins? Abraham had 3 wives and some concubines. obviously this wasnt a "one time" kind of deal, by todays standards of what makes you saved or not, abraham went to hell.
also David had lusted after another mans wife, and practicly murdered the man to obtain her. and David had 8 wives i think. solomon have many wives and was even lead astray into idol worship, because of it. Moses murdered an egyptian slaver, before being chased out of egypt. jacob schemed to get his fathers blessing. Samson killed out of vengence. none of the hero's of the bible were perfect, except for Jesus. He is the true hero. paul called himself the king of all sinners. paul even said that what he wants to do he does not do, and what he doesnt want to do, he does. and he says "i know that nothing good live in me, that is, in my sinful nature"- the way some christians talk now days would have you think if you lived just like these guys did, you would go to hell.
the awesome thing is that all of these people in the bible were still loved by God. God forgave them of those sins, and he can forgive anyone of those same sins.
we need to not think we understand everything in the bible. or even understand most of it. i act like i do, but i know i dont understand even a little bit. i am always seeing something that presents a problem, and i dont know how to solve it. so i google and i google, and of course i pray.
falling out of Gods grace, commiting suicide, sinners of the bible
Posted : 1 Mar, 2009 07:03 PM
Ah,
Now Tandy has thrown down the gauntlet. LOL. That is a very good question, Tandy. Now let me ask one, when, in our walks, are we commanded to repent? Think about this one, it is tricky.
As for my brother's post, I will have to get back to you after some meditation. I will say that I agree with much of what you said, mainly because of my own experience and the parables of the prodigal son and the lost sheep as told in Luke.
falling out of Gods grace, commiting suicide, sinners of the bible
Posted : 1 Mar, 2009 08:42 PM
Jeffro,
Greetings in Christ brother. I am going to post Matthew Henry's notes on this subject, I think it will explain a little of the problem you are having with the Hebrews scripture.
Home > Commentaries > Matthew Henry Concise > Hebrews > Chapter 6
Matthew Henry Concise Commentary
on the Whole Bible
Chapter 6
The Hebrews are urged to go forward in the doctrine of Christ, and the consequences of apostacy, or turning back, are described. (1-8) The apostle expresses satisfaction, as to the most of them. (9,10) And encourages them to persevere in faith and holiness. (11-20)
Verses 1-8 Every part of the truth and will of God should be set before all who profess the gospel, and be urged on their hearts and consciences. We should not be always speaking about outward things; these have their places and use, but often take up too much attention and time, which might be better employed. The humbled sinner who pleads guilty, and cries for mercy, can have no ground from this passage to be discouraged, whatever his conscience may accuse him of. Nor does it prove that any one who is made a new creature in Christ, ever becomes a final apostate from him. The apostle is not speaking of the falling away of mere professors, never convinced or influenced by the gospel. Such have nothing to fall away from, but an empty name, or hypocritical profession. Neither is he speaking of partial declinings or backslidings. Nor are such sins meant, as Christians fall into through the strength of temptations, or the power of some worldly or fleshly lust. But the falling away here mentioned, is an open and avowed renouncing of Christ, from enmity of heart against him, his cause, and people, by men approving in their minds the deeds of his murderers, and all this after they have received the knowledge of the truth, and tasted some of its comforts. Of these it is said, that it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance. Not because the blood of Christ is not sufficient to obtain pardon for this sin; but this sin, in its very nature, is opposite to repentance and every thing that leads to it. If those who through mistaken views of this passage, as well as of their own case, fear that there is no mercy for them, would attend to the account given of the nature of this sin, that it is a total and a willing renouncing of Christ, and his cause, and joining with his enemies, it would relieve them from wrong fears. We should ourselves beware, and caution others, of every approach near to a gulf so awful as apostacy; yet in doing this we should keep close to the word of God, and be careful not to wound and terrify the weak, or discourage the fallen and penitent. Believers not only taste of the word of God, but they drink it in. And this fruitful field or garden receives the blessing. But the merely nominal Christian, continuing unfruitful under the means of grace, or producing nothing but deceit and selfishness, was near the awful state above described; and everlasting misery was the end reserved for him. Let us watch with humble caution and prayer as to ourselves.
falling out of Gods grace, commiting suicide, sinners of the bible
Posted : 2 Mar, 2009 08:36 AM
From what I understand about repentance, is that its yielding your whole life to Christ, so he can change every area of you life, so that you will be able to give him all of you for all of him.
falling out of Gods grace, commiting suicide, sinners of the bible
Posted : 2 Mar, 2009 08:39 AM
Jeffro,
If you would like to read a more indepth commentray on Hebrews chapter 6 and/or other commentaries on all the books of the Bible by church fathers who interpreted the whole Bible from the 1500's to 1900's, from Henry, Barne, Luther, Wesley, Gill, and many other great Bible scholars and theologians who have translated scripture. As well as a few old Bibles from the old Genevan Bible, which is associated with John Calivin (Leon's favorite scholar), and others from the 1500's, People's NT, and many more Bible resources. Although some don't go into as great detail aas others, but you will find everything you ever wanted to know about scripture, and were afraid to ask. You can check out this website.
This site I use for my studies because these scholars had walked with God for long times, and knew God face to face in His word, and are the ones who have interpreted the whole and some in parts and given us the Bible from the Greek to English which has also given us our King James version today.
Matthew Henry is awesome, in fact, many ministers use his interpretation of scripture today in their understanding of the word. Darby, Clarke, Gill, Barne and many more greats are also on this site. I have been using this site and Bible.org in my Bibles studies for over five years now. I also was given asa gift a Matthew Henry's Volume One Commentary On the whole Bible which was put out by Zondervan Publishers in 1960, the pages are old and yellowing and fragile, sometimes I hate using it LOL. These online resources have also been very helpful in my studies, and I praise God for leading me to it therefore, I try to share these sites with others who are interested... so check them out...
I think you will also find in Henry's complete study on Hebrews in the whole Bible more of an exposition verse by verse explaination of chapter 6. Whereas, in the concise study he only breaks it down in a shorter form and does not explain all the verses in complete detail. i think Leon used this one because its shorter..., but the expository isn't that long either.
Here you will find everything you ever wanted to know about the Bible but were afraid to ask...:winksmile:... enjoy your study.
www.studylight.org/com
also
www.Bible.org
I've given this site out on another thread. but once is never even for bible study sites for resources. Here you can look up many topics on the subjects of interest.
And I just remembered www.crosswalk.org
Another great resource site. Here you can also ask Bible questions of some of the known ministers who contribute to the site. Just vist it for yourself and find what you're looking for... they also have a forum of ministers who will answer questions, etc.... visit these sites and read what is offered so that you may continue to grown spiritually in the knowledge and wisdom and understanding of God's word and learn more about who God is as a person. many people think tha just because God is love, He will tolerate anything and every kind of sin, if we just repent and keep it moving, but that's not true.
There are something God will not forgive no matter if Oral Roberson and all of Tulsa are praying, and Benny Hinn is throwing every jacket he ower from his closet and lowing out all his breath... and you're being anointed with every bottle of oil, criso can come up with... there are just some sins... forgiveness from God ain't happening.:nahnah:.... And people had better realize these things and start repenting of their sins, before it come to those sins God will not forgive. God's love is for real and He is love, and it is His divine nature to love... but He doesn't play game nor soft-shoe His Word for you, me or anyone else. He does tolerate sin, and refuses to allow anyone to frustrate His grace, and trample under foot His love or the integrity and works of His Son...
And when we think we have no more room to spiritually grow and to become more spirutally mature in the word of God, or have a need to know more about God as a person and His character... then somethings is wrong somewhere. Our goal is to grown from length to lenght, width to width, depth to depth and go from faith to faith in the Word, and without studying, thats rather impossible to do...
so enjoy your journey (as well as those who go in search) into your Biblical studies on these sites you will be surprised that you don't know what you think you know...:angel:
falling out of Gods grace, commiting suicide, sinners of the bible
Posted : 2 Mar, 2009 08:41 AM
"What about repenting?"
most people think that repenting means to "turn away from sin", or "to not sin anymore"
the biblical definition of repent is "a change of mind that results in a change of action" not "i have sinned and i will never sin again"
"It is crucially important that we understand repentance is not a work we do to earn salvation. No one can repent and come to God unless God pulls that person to Him (John 6:44). Acts 5:31 and 11:18 indicate that repentance is something God gives � it is only possible because of His grace. No one can repent unless God grants repentance. All of salvation, including repentance and faith, is a result of God's drawing us, opening our eyes, and changing our hearts. God's longsuffering leads us to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), as does His kindness (Romans 2:4)." copied and paste from another website...
"Repentance and faith can be understood as �two sides of the same coin.� It is impossible to place your faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior without first changing your mind about who He is and what He has done. Whether it is repentance from willful rejection, or repentance from ignorance or disinterest � it is a change of mind. Biblical repentance, in relation to salvation, is changing your mind from rejection of Christ, to faith in Christ." copied and paste
question to you martin... i assume that is your name?:prayingm: you said you dont believe in calvinism, and you believe the truth lies somewhere in between calvinism and arminian, and you say apostacy is possible, but by believing apostacy is possible, isnt that the arminian view? so is that your belief? or is it in between? could you explain to me a little bit in detail? if you have the time that is. i appreciate it. God Bless
falling out of Gods grace, commiting suicide, sinners of the bible
Posted : 2 Mar, 2009 09:41 AM
Hi Jeffro,
Ella was right about the reason i posted the concise commentary by Henry, it is shorter. But He stated fairly well what I believe. I think apostasy is like rubbing God's nose in your defiance and then daring Him to do something. Now, let me qualify that by saying that I don't believe anyone who is really saved could even go to that extreme.
I went pretty far when I wandered. I was in prison, and stood in the middle of a classroom full of other offenders, and told the teacher that the reason she believed in God was that she couldn't accept that when she died that was it.
This teacher was a wonderful lady that truly cared for the men she was trying to teach. If you have ever been to prison, you know that that caring is a rare quality. I was convicted by what I had said to her. Not because I didn't believe that way, but because it had hurt her. Even though she never held it against me.
I got shipped to another unit, and came back to God, then went through a special program of the most intense Bible Study you can imagine. We had formal instruction by Bible College instructors for 9 hours a day, then a small group of us had a private Bible study for another 3 hours every day, and finally finished with our own readings and study. From 5 a.m. until 10 p.m. every day was spent in prayer and study, with the short time we had for meals being the only breaks we took.
When I left there and went back to the original unit I was on, this teacher sent me a pass to come see her (Even after all that, I was the teacher's pet). She was retiring, and wanted to say goodbye before she left. She also wanted to make sure that I knew how to get in touch once I got out. I told her my testimony and she cried. I still stay in touch, she only lives a few miles from me.
I said all that to say, I wasn't convicted by the Holy Spirit, it was my conscience that saved me. The Holy Spirit may have played a part, but I was pretty far gone. God welcomed me back with open arms, and I will never forget that. I didn't deserve to be allowed back, but that didn't stop my Father from bringing me back anyway.
I was determined not to come back. So for all of you that believe in free will, sorry. I fought God every step of the way. I liked the world. I didn't want to change, but I didn't have a choice. God said come back, I said no, then I came back anyway, but it was kicking and screaming against my will. I was like Saul, kicking against the goads.
falling out of Gods grace, commiting suicide, sinners of the bible
Posted : 2 Mar, 2009 10:02 AM
Here is what Calvin has to say about it.
6. To renew them again into repentance, etc. Though this seems hard, yet there is no reason to charge God with cruelty when any one suffers only the punishment of his own defection; nor is this inconsistent with other parts of Scripture, where God�s mercy is offered to sinners as soon as they sigh for it, (Ezekiel 18:27;) for repentance is required, which he never truly feels who has once wholly fallen away from the Gospel; for such are deprived, as they deserve, of God�s Spirit and given up to a reprobate mind, so that being the slaves of the devil they rush headlong into destruction. Thus it happens that they cease not to add sin to sin, until being wholly hardened they despise God, or like men in despair, express madly their hatred to him. The end of all apostates is, that they are either smitten with stupor, and fear nothing, or curse God their judge, because they cannot escape from him. 9999 Some render the verb �renew� actively, in this way, � �For it is impossible as to those who have been once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and have been made partakers of holy spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come, and have fallen away, to renew them again unto repentance, since they crucify again as to themselves to Son of God, and expose him to open shame.�
This is more consistent with the foregoing, for the Apostle speaks of teaching. It is as though he had said �It is impossible for us as teachers;� as they had no commission. To �renew� may be rendered to �restore.� It is only found here, but is used by the Sept. for a verb which means renewing in the sense of restoring. See Psalm 103:5; 104:30; Lamentations 5:21. Josephus applies it to the renovation or restoration of the temple. The �crucifying� was what they did by falling away; for they thereby professed that he deserved to be crucified as an imposter, and thus counted his blood, as it is said in chapter 10:29, �unholy,� as the blood of a malefactor; and they thus also exhibited him as an object of public contempt. � Ed.
In short, the Apostle warns us, that repentance is not at the will of man, but that it is given by God to those only who have not wholly fallen away from the faith. It is a warning very necessary to us, lest by often delaying until tomorrow, we should alienate ourselves more and more from God. The ungodly indeed deceive themselves by such sayings as this, � that it will be sufficient for them to repent of their wicked life at their last breath. But when they come to die, the dire torments of conscience which they suffer, prove to them that the conversion of man is not an ordinary work. As then the Lord promises pardon to none but to those who repent of their iniquity, it is no wonder that they perish who either through despair or contempt, rush on in their obstinacy into destruction. But when any one rises up again after falling, we may hence conclude that he had not been guilty of defection, however grievously he may have sinned.
Crucifying again, etc. He also adds this to defend God�s severity against the calumnies of men; for it would be wholly unbecoming, that God by pardoning apostates should expose his own Son to contempt. They are then wholly unworthy to obtain mercy. But the reason why he says, that Christ would thus be crucified again, is, because we die with him for the very purpose of living afterwards a new life; when therefore any return as it were unto death, they have need of another sacrifice, as we shall find in the tenth chapter. Crucifying for themselves means as far as in them lies. For this would be the case, and Christ would be slandered as it were triumphantly, were it allowed men to return to him after having fallen away and forsaken him.
falling out of Gods grace, commiting suicide, sinners of the bible
Posted : 2 Mar, 2009 02:07 PM
Quote Jeffro says:
"I don't believe that committing suicide is a damnable sin... people say this because they believe that if you commit suicide, you cant ask for Gods forgiveness, thus your damned to hell."
Judas hanged himself. Some say by doing so he committed murder (on himself) but had no chance to repent of it. But it was the betrayal of Christ he was sorry for. On the other hand Samson also killed himself along with many Philistines. And he prayed to God that he would have the strength to do so. God seems to have approved of this by giving Samson his strength back.
In the cases of Jesus, He clearly laid down His life for others. And it was God's will. Did Jesus commit suicide for He knew what would take place?
