We all know that salvation is a very touchy subject when it comes to Christians. You can get along with someone, but if you start discussing the possibility of "losing your salvation" with a Christian, chances are they will get really defensive about it. In the end, the salvation issue isn't really a salvation issue. If you don't believe the way I believe concerning this issue, that doesn't condemn you to hell. Does that make sense? Meaning, you are either a true believer or you're simply not. Now, with that being said, I do believe that salvation is a very important thing to understand. It is not obtained by the sinner's prayer. It is not obtained by feeling "moved" by How Great Thou Art. It isn't even obtained by you telling others that you are a Christian. It is obtained by claiming that Yeshua is the Messiah, and allowing him to work in you so that you become a new creation, saved from the bondage of sin.
You must know that when you become a new believer, the real battle for your soul begins at that moment. If not, then why is endurance stressed so much throughout the scriptures? We are born into sin, and when we belong to Satan no more, then guess what? He will do whatever it takes to get you back.
It has been a difficult road for me to lay down my own pride as I have read through the scriptures, because it is a hard thing to have to change what you thought was true. I had to forget everything that I was ever taught, and rely on a revelation from the Holy Spirit.
Now, this is what I believe: You can lose your salvation. To me, there is just too much evidence throughout the scriptures to think otherwise. It is written,
"For when people have once been elightened, tasted the heavenly gift, become sharers in the Ruach HaKodesh (The Holy Spirit), and tasted the goodness of God's Word and the powers of the 'olam haba (the age to come) -- and then have fallen away -- it is impossible to renew them so that they turn from their sin, as long as for themselves they keep executing the Son of God on the stake all over again and keep holding him up to public contempt. For the land that soaks up frequent rains and then brings forth crop useful to its owners receives a blessing from God; but if it keeps producing thorns and thistles, it fails the test and is close to being cursed; in the end, it will be burned."
How can we become partakers of Holy Spirit without joining Yeshua the Messiah? We can't. So this says exactly what it means. They have tasted the heavenly gift, become sharers in the Holy Spirit, THEN fell away. For the person that soaks up the Word of God and brings forth fruit useful to God and Yeshua, they will receive a blessing. But if they keep producing thorns and thistles, they will be burned.
There is a difference between stumbling and falling. The problem is that some people don't learn from stumbling. When you physically trip over something and stumble, do you keep walking over the place where you stumbled? No! You don't want to fall down and make a fool of yourself. So you remember not to walk down the way that made you trip.
We can certainly fall away from the faith. Or do you not know about Sha'ul (Paul) handing Hymenaeus and Alexander (brothers in the faith) over to Satan for the destruction of their flesh so that they might be saved? And again, he wrote that we should not "associate with anyone who supposedly is a brother but who also engages in sexual immorality, is greedy, worships idols, is abusive, gets drunk or steals. With such a person you shouldn't even eat!"
Know that Sha'ul didn't say to stay away from all the people who do this, but only the ones who claim to be brothers. If we weren't to associate with the unbelieving who fall into sexual immorality and all of those things written above, then we would have to come out of the world!
1. Salvation From What?
What exactly are we being saved from? That's a question that I couldn't answer a couple of years ago. My answer probably would have been "Well, I got saved and baptized so that means I'm not going to hell!" Is that what salvation is? Being saved from eternal damnation? Is that how grace works?
We really need to understand what we are being saved from. When we proclaim that Yeshua is the Messiah and are baptized, we are saved from the bondage of sin so that we may become a new creation. That's how grace works! It allows us to be forgiven of our sins of the past and not be like a "dog that returns to its own vomit." Are we to stay in sin now that we are under grace? No! That's an excuse Christians have come up with over time to try to justify their sin. Wait, aren't we covered of our sins in the past, present, and even future? Yeah, if we ask for it. But It is written,
"For if we deliberately continue to sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrafice for sins, but only the terrifying prospect of Judgement, of raging fire that will consume the enemies. Someone who disregards the Torah of Moshe is put to death without mercy on the word of two or three witnesses. Think how much worse will be the punishment deserved by someone who has trampled underfoot the Son of God; who has treated as something common the blood of the covenant which made him holy; and who has insulted the Spirit, giver of God's grace! For the One who we know is the One who said, "Vengeance is my responsibility; I will repay," and then said, "Adonai will judge His people." It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God!"
Do not be foolish in your thinking. This doesn't say that if you sin once, you have lost your salvation. It says IF you deliberately CONTINUE to do so after knowing right from wrong, then there no longer remains that sacrafice for your sin. Once you have received the Helper, you are without excuse. It isn't that easy because we still have our flesh to contend with, but we must strive to live by the Spirit and not by our fleshly desires. We must pick up our cross and crucify our flesh daily.
Are we to be perfect? Yeshua did say that we are to be perfect as His Heavenly Father is perfect. But if you read that scripture in context, you will find that He is actually talking about His Father's love. We are to be perfect in our love (which should be unconditional like His). With that being said, it doesn't hurt us to strive for perfection, even though we know that all have fallen short of the Glory of God.
2. Fear of God
We know that is it written that the Fear of God is the beginning of knowledge. Now, if we tell new believers that "once you're saved, you're always saved," we are taking away that fear that must be there in order for them to gain knowledge. Let's say that it is true that you are always saved, even then, that statement shouldn't be said nor should it be taught to future leaders of congregations. Who are we to say something like that? If anything, we should be fearful to say such a thing.
What kind of fear is this? It's a holy fear! He disciplines those whom He loves. You know that fear you got when you were little when you would do something that you shouldn't, and you hope and pray that your dad doesn't find out about it? Take that fear and multiply it by thousands. Then ask yourself why you aren't ashamed of doing the things you do even though you know that God, your heavenly Father, sees all of it.
We must have that Fear of God so that we may gain knowledge, understanding, and wisdom.
3. We Are The Branches
What does Yeshua say about losing your salvation? He paints a picture so clear that one shouldn't have to add to it in order for people to believe it. For it is writtin,
"I am the real vine and my Father is the gardener. Every branch which is part of me but fails to bear fruit, he cuts off; and every branch that does bear fruit, he prunes, so that it may bear more fruit. Right now, because of the words which I have spoken to you, you are pruned. Stay united with me, as I will with you -- for just as the branch can't put forth fruit by itself apart from the vine, so you can't bear fruit apart from me.
I am the vine and you are the branches. Those who stay united with me, and I with them, are the ones who bear much fruit; because apart from me you can't do a thing. Unless a person remains united with me, he is thrown away like a branch and dries up. Such branches are gathered and thrown into the fire, where they are burned up.
If you remain united with me, and my words are with you, then ask whatever you want, and it will happen for you. This is how my Father is glorified -- in your bearing much fruit; this is how you will prove to be my talmidim (disciples).
Just as my Father has loved me, I too have loved you; so stay in my love. If you keep my commands, you will stay in my love -- just as I have kept my Father's commands and stay in his love. I have said this to you so that my joy may be in you, and your joy be complete."
God is the gardener and has the power to remove branches that do not bear fruit. Now, Yeshua says "every branch which is part of me." How do we become a part of Yeshua? Are we born as a branch when we come into this world? No! We become a branch when we claim that he is who he says he is, are saved from the bondage of sin, and become a new creation grafted into the vine. Then we must bear fruit. But then it continues, "Every branch which is part of me but fails to bear fruit, HE (the gardner, God) cuts off." How much more clear can Yeshua get?! He is saying that there are branches that will be a part of him, and THEN will be cut off by our heavenly Father. "Those branches are gathered and thrown into the fire (hell), where they are burned up."
Yeshua commands the disciples, "Stay united with me! Unless a person REMAINS united with me they are thrown away." But, wait a minute, is he contradicting himself since he told them earlier that, "They will absolutely never be destroyed, and no one will snatch them from my hands. My Father, who gave them to me, is greater than all; and no one can snatch them from the Father's hands."? No he doesn't contradict himself. We have the decision to remain united with him, or else he wouldn't have kept saying, "Stay united with me." And also, that scripture never says that the Father can't remove someone from his own hands. It just says that no one can snatch them out. It doesn't say you can't leave on your own free will. His followers will never be destroyed IF they continue to bear fruit. IF they remain a branch united with the vine, and his words remain with them.
Yeshua says again later, "Stay in my love!" How do we stay in his love? If we keep his commands. He has commissioned us to go and bear fruit, fruit that will last.
4. Limiting His Power
Another subject I would like to discuss isn't really important to know, necessarily. A man told me recently that God has only revealed to us what he wants to reveal to us. There is so much more about God that we can't even begin to comprehend it. Here, on Earth, we are fascinated to know everything there is about God. But I am almost certain that when we join Yeshua in the clouds on that great day, it won't even matter. However, I am writing about this subject because many people like to limit his power, and feel as though they have the authority to say that he can and can't do certain things, such as "Once saved, always saved." Who can comprehend the mind of God?
It is written,
"Adonai saw that the people on earth were very wicked, that all the imaginings of their hearts were always of evil only. Adonai regretted that he had made humankind on the earth; it grieved his heart. Adonai said, "I will wipe out humankind, whom I have created, from the whole earth; and not only human beings, but animals, creeping things and birds in the air; for I regret that I ever made them." "
Many will say, "Well, he didn't really REGRET making humans. He was just putting it in human terms so that we may understand." Yeah, actually, he did do that. Why? Because he did regret it! Or else he would not have said so. If he said he regretted it and it grieved his heart, then guess what? That's exactly how he felt about it!
We all know the story of the testing of Avraham, but I would like to point out what God said to Avraham as he was about to sacrafice his son.
" "Avraham? Avraham!" He answered, "Here I am." He said, "Don't lay your hand on the boy! Don't do anything to him! For now I know that you are a man who fears God, because you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me."
FOR NOW I know that you are a man who fears God. He didn't say NOW YOU KNOW that you fear God. It reads FOR NOW I KNOW. He surely was testing Avraham, but who's to say he didn't test men before Avraham? Who's to say that God was seeing if there were men on earth who would be willing to sacrafice their own son, just as he knew that he would have to do at a later time? Then, when Avraham passed the test, he blessed him and increased his descendants (one being the Son of God). In the first chapter of Matthew, where does the genealogy begin? It begins with Avraham. Why? Because he was found worthy.
Another verse, when the Israelites made the gold calf and were offering sacrafices to it, God's anger burned against them and he said to Moshe, "I have been watching these people; and you can see how stiffnecked they are. Now leave me alone, so that my anger can blaze against them and I can put an end to them! I will make a great nation out of you instead." So he commands Moshe to leave him alone! But Moshe speaks anyway and tells him to not be angry with his people and destroy them because of the promises he made to their fathers. Now, was he testing Moshe? Sure. But look at this verse,
"Adonai then changed his mind about the disaster he had planned for his people."
Did I read that right? It said he changed his mind? Yes it did. You know why? Because if it says he changed his mind, then he changed his mind!
One more example: There was a time in the Old Covenant when the people of Y'hudah started to burn their own children as an offering to Molekh. God said this about that,
"They built the high places for Ba'al which are in the Ben-Hinnom Valley, to burn alive their sons and daughters to Molekh -- something I did not order them to do, it never even entered my mind that they would do such an abominable thing -- and thus they caused Y'hudah to sin."
It never even entered my mind that they would do such an abominable thing. Once again, if he said it, then that's what he meant to say. He said that it NEVER entered into his mind that they would do it! But guess what? They did do it.
If God said he changed his mind, that he regretted making humans, that it never entered his mind that Y'hudah would do such a thing, and that he NOW knows that Avraham feared God, then who is to say that he can't remove you from the vine which you have been grafted in?
I know I say this a lot, and some of you have heard it many times, but I will say it again!: God isn't who we say he is or even who we think he is. He is who HE says he is through the scriptures that he has given us. If you want to know about God, then read the things he has chosen to reveal to us, but first you must know His Son.
5. Moshe Parallelism
The story of Moshe is powerful in many ways than the obvious stories that we heard as little kids. There is a parallel to it that concerns our own life and walk with Yeshua Messiah. I will try to explain this as best as I can:
1. The Israelites were slaves to Egypt - We were slaves to sin.
2. God sent Moshe to free his people from slavery - God sent His Son to free everyone from sin.
3. God gave Moshe the Law and a covenant to give to his people - God gave us grace and a new covenant through his son, Yeshua.
4. God sent his people through the desert to get to the promised land - God sends us through this world to get to heaven (our promised land).
When you read the story of Moshe, some died in the wilderness because they couldn't endure the desert. They lost faith, lost focus, and strayed away from God. The author of Hebrews even says that those who died in the desert did not enter into his rest because of disobedience.
We MUST endure the desert, because if we can not, we surely WILL NOT enter into his rest. We are slaves to whom we obey, whether of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to being made righteous.
Outro: Living A Life Worthy
Looking back on my life, I realize that I was a good kid all the way through high school. I never caused trouble, never partied, never did anything really! I claimed to be a Christian and all who know me, or know OF me, would even tell you that I was a follower. I would proudly wear my "Jesus T-Shirts" and all of that. But from what I know now, I know that if I died in high school, hell would be awaiting me. I was far from truth and far from Yeshua. Being a nice person doesn't get you into heaven. I do not have the authority to say that "this one goes" and "this one does not" but I do know where my heart is and was. And I know my heart wasn't after the things of God.
In the following 3-1/2 years after I graduated, my flesh manifested itself and I became something that I am very ashamed of. It's not easy to think about, let alone to bring it up again, but I descended into a dark place that I was unaware of. I lived in sin. I would get drunk with my friends and went to bars. I made decisions and followed through on actions that destroyed friendships and relationships, never to be the same again. Some people want nothing to do with me anymore and I don't blame them. At the time of all of this, I felt guilty for what I was doing. I knew it was wrong, but didn't think about the consquences of my actions. I didn't want to think about it. I wanted to have fun, and in all honesty, I did have fun. But only in a fleshly way, and not in a Godly way. My flesh loved it, because I had nothing in me but emptiness.
But then when Yeshua knew that enough was enough, he intervened on my behalf. I stopped feeling guilty, and I started feeling CONVICTED. There is a difference between the two. Feeling guilty doesn't change who you are. You just "feel bad" for sinning. Being convicted breaks you down to where the very thought of what you've done makes you realize just how evil you can be. I remember times when I was going through this, mom thought I was depressed. I was but I wasn't, if that makes sense! I was dying to myself. Something was happening in me that I still can't understand. It will always be happening, but those first few months were brutal. It's not easy to give up a life that you are so used to. But God is worthy of it all. I tell you this because no matter how far you think you are from God, you can still find him. If you're in a dark place, turn the light on! Read your bible. Be willing to change and transform around truth.
For the first 22 years of my life, I didn't live a life worthy of the Kingdom. In fact, I'm still not worthy of it. But by grace, I am able to receive it if I remain united in Yeshua's love just as he remained united in his Father's love. Yeshua said this is my command: that you love one another. That is how he knows that we are his.
I encourage you to live a life worthy of your calling, and to discern the difference between being churchified and being sanctified. And finally, I encourage you to endure the desert.
I disagree with you that a True Christian can lose their salvation.
I disagree because I can show many verses that say that Salvation is God's choice, and HE choose His people.
What a Christian should be asking themselves from time to time, is not "Have I lost my salvation", but rather, "Am I truly born again"?
As Jesus said plainly to Nicodemus, you MUST be born again, and you can't do that yourself, the Holy Spirit does it to whoever God the Father has chosen.
You can't make yourself born again, and you can't make yourself
UN'born again.
I think there are certainly people who SEEM like they have been born again for a while, but they get tired of pretending to be something they are not, and they leave us.
So, I do agree that there are people who SEEM to be true Christians, and then leave the faith, but the truth is they were never born again in the first place.
I can't remember the chapter and verse number, but I remember reading:
"They went out from amongst us, because they were not of us."
True Christians can NOT lose their salvation, because salvation is decided by God, and NOT by the will of man.
God chose Adam and Eve to represent the race, and God chose Abraham and Moses, and Job and David, and on and on.
And we have to make sure that whatever we believe, that is does not contradict the PLAIN words of Jesus, right???
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Now, Jesus spent plenty of time talking about the sheep the Father had given Him. Jesus said He died specifically for them, and that He "would not lose even one" of the sheep the Father had given Him.
Jesus said: "ALL that the Father gives me WILL come to me."
But you might say, Okay all of God's chosen WILL come to Jesus, but what about later on? Can't they just walk away later?
Well here is Jesus talking about this again, and this time, it sounds like the ENTIRE LIFE of a Christian:
Joh 6:37-40 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
I mean here we have Jesus saying He would "Lose NOTHING" and that He will raise them up again on the last day.
And what about this from the Apostle Paul:
Phi 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
God is the one who chose us, and made us come alive spiritually, so HE IS the one who "began a good work" in us, and Paul says that God will continue to do this our entire lives.
"For when people have once been elightened, tasted the heavenly gift, become sharers in the Ruach HaKodesh (The Holy Spirit), and tasted the goodness of God's Word and the powers of the 'olam haba (the age to come) -- and then have fallen away -- it is impossible to renew them so that they turn from their sin, as long as for themselves they keep executing the Son of God on the stake all over again and keep holding him up to public contempt. For the land that soaks up frequent rains and then brings forth crop useful to its owners receives a blessing from God; but if it keeps producing thorns and thistles, it fails the test and is close to being cursed; in the end, it will be burned."
The farmer
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those once having been enlightened, and having tasted of the heavenly gift, and becoming sharers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and tasting the good Word of God, and the works of power of a coming age,
Heb 6:6 and having fallen away, it is impossible for them again to renew to repentance, crucifying again for themselves the Son of God, and putting Him to open shame.
Please do yourself a favor,look into this with a Greek interlinear,using a Greek lexicon to help with the word studies.
Then find the tense of the words and you will have a different understanding of this Scripture.
Please remember the English translations are just that a
'TRANSLATION' of the original.
There a a lot of mistranslated verses in the English Translations.
great post brother and I have ears to hear! some peole like to believe they cant do anything to lose salvation becsue it is a scary thought but it can be lost better way of saying it is we forfit it and if someone believes they can forfit their salvation then they must also believe that its possible that they may have forfited theirs! You cant continue in your sins and expect salvvation .. shall we continues in sin that grace may aboud???? GOD FORBID (romans 6:1 I think but I am nnot sure) this is something that wont fly God will not be mawked!
I totaly agree with what you have said!
People brothers and sisters you can post all the scripture you want to make it seem like the word says you cant turn fromsalvation but it mever 86es the scriptures my brother has posted they are still there and angel is right, why would the bible use the word backslider if no such person existed
Thank you brothers and sisters for posting on this controversial subject.
I think you can backslide, however, I don't believe you truly lose salvation if you were sincere and once truly saved. I do believe like James said you can lose your salvation if you were never truly saved. I believe if I was to sin and backslide that G-d would come after me because Yeshua is the Good Shepard, he tends to his flock and knows those who are His. Like the scripture says, "No one can snatch them out of his hand"
I agree with Elisha, you can't continue in sin and expect to be saved, because G-d will not be mocked, we reap what we sow. And it could be that after so many times that he draws us back and we refuse, then we are cut off?
Is that as clear as mud?...I thought so...
Grace and peace to all my brothers and sisters in Christ. Elisha I'm sorry if I offended you yesterday, its just I was really deceived for a while and I pray no one else falls into the same trap I did and because of that I might come on a bit strong a times. I enjoy your posts and receive edification,thank-you.
am I the only one who thinks that the phrase "do your self a favor" is arogant , rude and prideful?
George maybe sometimes your intentions are good however the things you say and little snide comments are off putting and turn people off to whatever it was you were going to say! Nobosdy is gonna hear what you are trying to tell them wheterh it be truth or lies if you mis in with it something like "do yourself a favor" ther is no humilty, wisdom or genuine love and concern for your borhters and sistes in a phrase like that! On the contrary it sounds very prideful and arogant and I have always heard whatever is inside you will comeout your mouth (or in this case fingers) so maybe you need to take sometime and ask God to show you yopur lever of pride and arogance that is totaly turning thses people against what ever it is your trying to say!
Maybe you need a self help book like how to win friends an influence people! I havent read such a book but I assure you if you want to win people over you dont say things like that to them! especialy when it is someone we havent seen before! You could run someone off completly with a comment like that, and it could have been someone who we might have learned from!!
O George can you be humblew enough to except that you can learn from someone else?
If someone can lose their salvation is delving into very dangerous waters because this means they believe Jesus is not sufficient to save completely, but that we must somehow maintain our own just standing before God.
No sis it just means that man is stupid and ficklel enough to turn is stupid back on a oerfect God even after God has saved and cleaned him! It speaks mostly to the utter stupidity of men! No matter what good thing God gives us and how wonderful it is! There are some who are dumb enough to quit wqalking in the faith!
