So I really don't want to start my homework so I thought I would post something to fuel a little debate.
Before I start this I should explain a little bit about myself and my beliefs so that the context in which this is written will become clearer and thus easier to understand and debate.
I believe that the Bible is the word of God, but I do not read it word for word. I am a contexual reader; I am not trying to debate this fact, but simply explain it up front. Please do not back up your agrument with Scripture. To me this is pointless. Not just for the sake of this argument, but especially when you are explaining God to non-believers. If someone was trying to convert you to be Muslim would you listen to their rationale if they quoted the Kuran?
So my question of course is how do you make a rational argument that God exists?
You can't say faith because while this is a good argument it isn't rational. The very definition excludes it from being rational.
You cannot say that God has always been therefore he must exist. Why not? That is not rational. That is a belief that cannot be proven. You are basically saying that God created himself. If that isn't what your saying than who/what created God?
Some will point to miracles as rational evidence of God. Well, what is a miracle? Something that cannot be explained by natural causes.
My point in writing this is not to make anyone angry. It is simply to open up minds and get people thinking instead of blindly believing. My personal belief is that God wants us to questions things and to turn up rocks as this is a gratifying way to have a stronger relationship. Perhaps more importantly, by developing your faith and questioning perhaps even your own beliefs you will be able to connect with non-believers and help guide them towards Christianity which (or should) be one of the main goals of Christians. If you take nothing away please realize that quoting Scripture to non-believers is not very beneficial. On my mission trip last year I saw many people attempt to quote Scripture and the minute they did people stopped listening. To you and me it may be the word of God, but to others it is simply one of many books without meaning.
~ Julio
PS: I am a believer and regardless of whether or not there is a rational argument for God I will still believe in him and accept Christ as my savior.
I never saw Hitler rule Germany and kill 6 million jews or Alexander the Great conquer most of the known world but history says they did and I believe it. Therefore, when history also says that a man named Jesus lived to heal the sick, raise the dead and then died only to come back to life thus defeating the only enemy which we could not elude, I believe it. Thomas who walked with Jesus, ate with Jesus, saw Him crucified and was told by Jesus didn't believe even though the Lord told him it would all happen.
Thomas said when told by the other disciples, "Unless I stick my finger in His hand and stick my hand in His side I won't believe." When Jesus appeared in the next instant and told Thomas to stick his finger in His hand and stick his hand in His side, Thomas all of a sudden believed and declared, "My Lord and my God."
Thomas believed because he saw, blessed are those who having not seen believe. That is us. No one can come to the Lord unless the Father draws them by the Spirit. We plant, we water but God makes it grow. So my brother your question is itself pointless. People will believe or they won't. Our arguments won't bring them to God but our prayers will.
Im sorry if you think my question is pointless. Perhaps I worded it wrong. Also, sorry for the late post. I went to New Jersey this week-end and just got back.
I understand what you are saying, but I disagree. My point was not so much to make a rational argument as much as it was to prove there is no rational argument. Many non-believers are rational people and as you mentioned may only believe by seeing. However, God works through each and everyone of us. By becoming educated and being able to relate to non-believers we can upgrade the seeds we are planting and make it easier for God to grow inside of the person.
Too often I think as Christians we accept the fact that we are saved and think that a litte 'prayer' is all we can do and then it is up to God.
I wouldn't pray to get a good grade on a test. I study hard and prepare myself so when the test comes I ace it. God favors hard workers. The same can be said about realtionships with non-believers. I've had a few friends who were non-believers and through a lot of hard work I have been able to plant a seed. If I had not questioned my own beliefs and put myself in their shoes and asked myself questions they would have asked I would not have been succesful. Of course I could have just said, 'well I prayed for them; God must not be ready to work with them', but to me that would have been selling them short.
Again, I'm sorry if you think the question is pointless. Maybe someone reading this will latch on and thus a 'seed' will be planted.
Your question is not pointless, sometimes intelligent people are too smart for their own good.
I've debated God's existance with non-believers on other sites and the "Only God can create something from nothing" argument always stumped them. Didn't change ther views, but shut them up until another thread was started.
You look in newspapers from around the world and you see miracles happening every day. Men found floating in a chest for nearly a month without fresh water and surviving. Cars being found covered with snow for days and the occupants not freezing to death. Stories of people who tumors went into remission and nearly disappeared after given weeks to live. Miracles happen all the time, people just don't look for them.
Do the research, record the occurances and end your paper with the "Only God can create something from nothng" argument.
Thank you everyone for responding/reading my thread.
I feel really bad as a Christian for countering arguments and the truth is I don't have a definitive answer to the question. No one really does. The one thing I took away from this when I was posed the question was that there is no rational argument for God and that is why it is on us Christians to lead by example and to work extra hard with non-believers to help make God's job easier (this is where i would agree with a previous post that God needs to 'grow the seed'). If I had died before last year I would not have been saved and I realize how many people out there are not going to be saved. Truth is you will not encounter too many non-believers that will pose this question because not to many people think about it. However, they will ask other questions and the better prepared you are to answer the more likely it is that they will be willing to open their heart to God.
In regards to that last post: If you believe only God can create something out of nothing than who created God? If you believe that he always existed or created himself than you have to be open to the idea that the universe always existed or created itself. Thomas J Ord and Jon D. Levenson are two of the Christian theologians who argue against the 'God created something out of nothing' idea.
Julio, by the time they ask "Who create God?" that now means they acknowledge the Lord's existance, ask them about their belief in God again. Next ask them if they die, would they go to Heaven or Hell? Then you can ask them if they know the Ten Commandments. Remember them yourself because you will probably have to recite the commandments to them. Ask them if they keep all the commandments. Tell them the bible says, "If you're guilty of breaking any of the commandments, you're guilty of breaking them all. For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God." They will have to admit they are sinners and have to admit they are going to Hell.
From there you can start witnessing salvation through Christ and what Jesus did for us on the cross.
You don't have to use scripture when witnessing, have strength in your faith.
A lot of theologians are the biggest unbelievers. People assume that someone that studies that much about the Bible would be big believers, but it doesn't work that way. Too many of them get caught up in the academics of our faith and never recover. Answer comments like those with philosophical questions. Is our always the same as God's always? If the universe always existed, why couldn't God have always existed? Doesn't that argument, also point to the existence of God? And if He exists, why would He lie about creating the universe? Has much learning driven you mad? If you believe in the concept of always having existed, then it would seem unreasonable to not accept the first book that came up with that whole concept, and gave you all the answers. Wouldn't that be like believing that the number 4 exists, but that 2 +2 =4 can not be true, because 2 x 2 = 4.
But before you become too obsessed with having answers ready for unbelievers, remember that it is God who draws them. He is the only one that can make them interested in our faith. You or I, can talk until we are blue in the face, and if God has not called them, it does no good. These kinds of questions come from people trying to change your belief, not the other way around. Nevertheless keep on. You will learn to discern the difference.
Thanks to everyone for responding and posting; this however will be my last post as I can see this is leading down the wrong path.
In regards to the last post:
I assumed nothing. I would like to clarify one thing: The second person I mentioned is in fact Jewish so many would not consider him Christian, but that is a debate for another time. It is possible to be a theologian and Christian at the same time and in fact in my opinion these people are just as important as ministry because they appeal to a different type of non-believer.
Also, the concept of always existing did not come about when the Bible was written. History has shown that humans have questioned this and attempted to answer since we were created. There are many books that answer this question, the Bible being one of them. Again, I think we have our Christian blinders on and are not thinking like a non-believer.
What I am saying is to a non-believer it is equally possible that God created the earth (or a different God) as it is to believe that no God existed and the universe always was.
Finally, I agree that it is God that draws a person in, but God works through each and everyone of us. He may draw a person in by using one of us as an instrument (this is often the case).
This entire thread I have been trying to make an argument for educating ourselves in our beliefs without using the Bible, but seeing as how we are all believers my point may be made more clear this way:
When Jesus spoke to the non-believers was there ever a question he couldn't answer? How did he get people to follow and believe in him besides miracles? He used parables and outsmarted the pharasies. He RELATED to them. He didn't have the luxury of the Bible; even if he did have a Bible he wouldn't have needed it. When God himself talked to people did they immediately convert? No, but he planted the best seed he possibly could using infinite knowledge and understanding, realizing that the growth may occur later in the person's life. He gave us a blueprint to follow. Since we are not born with infinite knowledge and will never obtain it the best we can do is educate and test ourselves to become more knowledgable and thus create a stronger relationship with God and help lead our brothers and sister to him while he works through us.
We have it easy. We aren't trying to prove we are God, we just have to help people understand that God exists and that he loves and wants them in his kingdom.
Anyways, I'm very sorry, but this thread is not going the way I wanted it to and I cannot state what I have stated in any and all of my posts clearer than I already have.
In closing I would like to thank everyone for reading this post or commenting on it.
No need to apologize, your concern for the lost is plain to see. This concern is where your question originated.
In using the word "pointless" I meant as I and Leon stated (hi Leon) that no one can come to God unless He draws them. Our prayers are never "little" but are mighty to the pulling down of strongholds. Even the strongholds that we all build up as unbelievers. We all start as unbelievers. God draws us and we make a choice.
As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness that whoever "looked up" would not die from the plague of serpents God sent against His own people, so must we look up. Not everyone looked up to receive the gift of life as represented by the brass serpent. Even so not everyone will "look up" and see Jesus on the cross and be healed. We all must choose.
Our prayers, will allow unbelievers to have their heart softened (by whatever means God will choose to use). As I said we plant, we water, God makes it grow.
The seed is always good my brother. I know you are speaking of the delivery but the seed I planted by the power of the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead and is always good. We as individuals choose to believe and receive.
Wether people believe now or not, we will all ultimately believe for we shall all stand before Him. He is merciful, more than we realize. I think we will be surprised when we see Him face to face. Every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess my brother. Pray that they will bow and confess now willingly instead of then by force.
I met Jesus when I was 17, I saw Him and even argued with Him but I submitted for I had no where else to go and He had the and even is the Word of Eternal Life. By His patient care and leading He has won my trust. Trust Him for your friends my brother. Jesus can be trusted to feel our concern and even is our concern for He dwells in us.
Since it is by faith we know our Holy Father you have to try their faith.
Since they cannot accept God because they don't see, ask them if they believe in something they haven't seen. Ask them if the believe in ufos and extraterrestrial life. Most will say yes because it is hard to believe we are the only physical entities in the universe. They have put their faith in something unseen. How different is that from our fatih in an unseen God? Plus if the existance of aliens is true, what do they (the aliens) put their faith in?
What if a race of creatures, much more advance than us, actually believe in God, seen the wonders of the Lord, and spoke to our forefathers about Him? If all that is true, such is the bible is true. Would it not be better to put their faith in the Lord rather than commit their souls to eternal damnation?
