*** I�ve been doing some research & studies on the topic of Pre-Post-Trib and found this on the Jews For Jesus Site�a Messianic Perspective and Absolutely Fascinating�Apologize for the length but its worth the read if you are a Post-Triber..Enjoy�xo
THE POST-TRIBULATION RAPTURE VIEW
The Post-Tribulation Rapture View holds that the timing of the rapture coincides with Christ's Second Coming at the end of the Tribulation, i.e. Daniel's Seventieth Week. Those holding to the Post-Tribulation Rapture view believe Christians will go through the Tribulation. Those holding the Post-Tribulation Rapture view understand the real implications Biblical prophecy concerning the Tribulation has upon their lives. As opposed to the Pre-Tribulation view, which in essence offers an "escape" to Christians from the sufferings and persecutions to take place during the Tribulation; the Post-Tribulation view acknowledges the Church's part in the events of the Tribulation, suffering not withstanding.
Do the Scriptures show there to be a Post-Tribulation Rapture? Let's look at the main verse on the Rapture and see:
"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first (i.e., the resurrection): then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds (i.e., the rapture), to meet the Lord in the air." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)
In addition to 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, One also must look at 1 Corinthian 15: 52 to understanding the scriptural backing of the Post-Tribulation Rapture view. The passage reads,
"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
Those accepting the Post-Tribulation Rapture view notice the similarity of the three things mentioned in each book: (1) the trumpet sounds; (2) the resurrection of the dead in Christ; (3) the living saints are changed (which all agree, is when this mortal puts on immortality and believers rise to meet the Lord in the air). Whereas 1 Thessalonians 4: 16-17 identifies the time of this as "the trump of God," 1 Corinthians 15: 52 further specifies it as the last trump.
Even more positive evidence of a Post-Tribulation Rapture is found in Paul's second letter to the Thessalonians. In his first epistle, he had explained to them about the resurrection and the catching up of believers to meet the Lord in the air. (I Thessalonians 4: 16-17) Later, some confusion had apparently developed in the minds of the people concerning this glorious event, so Paul wrote his second epistle to them in which he clarified the matter. In his remarks, he clearly shows there to be a Post-Tribulation Rapture.
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by (concerning) the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by (concerning) our gathering together unto Him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means, for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed (Antichrist), the son of perdition." (2 Thessalonians 2: 1-3)
In support of a Post-Tribulation Rapture, there is mention of two things Christians would clearly witness before the day of Christ's coming to gather believers unto Himself. There would be a falling away and the man of sin would be revealed. Concerning these very things, the inspired apostle said, "Let no man deceive you." These two points, particularly the last point, are only compatible with a Post-Tribulation Rapture.
Even Christ's own words point to a Post-Tribulation Rapture. Shortly before His death, Jesus spoke these words to His disciples: "In the world ye shall have tribulation ..." (John 16:33) The verses that follow the prayer in which Jesus prayed for His disciples record what He prayed to the Heavenly Father. He said, "I pray not that thou take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil." (John 17:15)
Though it would be no easy task to take a stand for Jesus Christ, though they would be persecuted, though in the world they would have tribulation, Jesus did not pray that the Church would be taken out of the world. The Church was to remain in the world, but it would not be of the world. This is in harmony with the Post-Tribulation Rapture view.
Those opposed to the Post-Tribulation Rapture might object, however, that Jesus was praying only for His immediate disciples of that time. This is not the case. "Neither pray I for these alone," He said, "but for them also which shall believe on me through their word" (verse 20). Does this not include us today?
Those believing in a Post-Tribulation Rapture accept that instead of the Church being taken out of the world, Jesus taught that it would remain in the world to accomplish a definite purpose: to preach the Gospel. Jesus commissioned His disciples to "go ... and teach all nations" and in connection with this commission He promised, "Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world (age)." (Matthew 28:19-20) this passage also proves the Post-Tribulation Rapture view in its belief the Church is to remain in the world until the end.
If the Rapture is not to be a Post-Tribulation Rapture, then surely His promise to be with the Church until the end of the age would be strange if it is His plan to remove the Church seven years before that time (or even three and a half years before, as those who subscribe to the Mid-Tribulation Rapture Theory suggest). If, when the end of the age comes, the Church would no longer be on the earth, a promise such as this would be meaningless and a Post-Tribulation Rapture view would be incorrect.
Among the Parables of Christ there is also evidence of a Post-Tribulation Rapture. In the Parable of the Wheat and Tares (Matthew 13:24-30) Jesus said that "both" (the wheat and the tares, i.e. true and false believers) would grow "together" until the "end of the world" - and then the harvest would occur, producing the great separation. The harvest occurs at the end of the age, and it is at the time of the harvest that the rapture will occur - and the tares will then be gathered up and burned. The Post-Tribulation Rapture view fits neatly with this parable.
Those believing in a Post-Tribulation Rapture also make special note of Christ's words in the Gospel of John:
"And this is the will of Him that sent me," Jesus said, "that everyone which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up "at the last day." (John 6:40, 44)
Again and in further support of the Post-Tribulation Rapture view, He repeated the words in verse 54: "I will raise him up at the last day."
With this evidence in mind, certain conclusions are apparent that point to a Post-Tribulation Rapture. Since the "catching up" or Rapture occurs at the same time as the Resurrection of the dead in Christ (I Thessalonians 4:16, 17), it is plain to see that the Rapture is to be a Post-Tribulation Rapture and will take place at the last day and not seven years (or 3 1/2 years) before the last day.
WILL THE RESURRECTION OF THE CHURCH SAINTS OCCUR ON THE SAME LAST DAY AS THE RESURRECTION OF THE LOST??
John 6:40� Jesus says, �For my Father�s will is that EVERYONE who looks to the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the *LAST DAY*!��
John 6:44: Jesus says, �No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the *LAST DAY!�
Pre-tribbers believe that the *LAST DAY* mentioned 6 times in John 6:39,40,44,54;11:24,12:48 refers to a CONCEALED RESURRECTION 7 years *BEFORE THE LAST DAY*.� However, John 12:48 shows that the lost will also be condemned on that same *LAST DAY*!�
*WHEN WILL THE LOST BE JUDGED AND SENT TO HELL*?
John 12:48: Jesus says, �There is a Judge for the one who rejects Me and does not accept My words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the *LAST DAY*!!��
2 Thess 1:1,6-10:� �To the *CHURCH* of the Thessalonians�God is just; He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well.� This will happen *WHEN* the Lord Jesus is *REVEALED* {See I Peter 1:13} from heaven in blazing fire with His powerful **ANGELS*:angel::angel:. � He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.� They will be punished with everlasting *DESTRUCTION* and shut out from the presence of the Lord *ON THE DAY HE COMES* to be glorified in His holy people!!� {THE LAST DAY-See Rev 20:11-15}
Matt 25:31-34,41:� Jesus says, �*WHEN* the Son of Man comes in His glory,{On the Last Day} and all the **ANGELS**:angel::angel: with Him {See Matt 24:29-31}, He will sit on His throne in heavenly glory.� All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another��He will put His sheep on His right and the goats on the left. *THEN the King {Jesus} will say to those on His right, �Come you who are blessed by My Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world... *THEN He will say to those on His left, �Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire!���
John 5:28,29:� Jesus says, �Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming {The Last Day} when *ALL* {Both OT & NT Saints} who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out�those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.��
Daniel 12:1b,2,7b:� �There will be a time of distress {The Great Tribulation} such as not happened from the beginning of nations until then.� But at that time {The Last Day} your people--*EVERYONE* whose name is found written in the Book {Both OT & NT Saints}�will be delivered.� Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt�It will be for a time. times and half a time {1260 days-Rev 12:6,14, or 42� {30-day} months-Rev 13:5-{Not 7 years} *ALL* these things will be ***COMPLETED***.��
The pre-tribbers wrongly believe that the OT saints will receive their eternal perfect heavenly bodies 7 years AFTER the Church saints. However, in Hebrews 11:39,40 we read �These {OT super saints mentioned in Heb 11:4-38} were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that ONLY TOGETHER WITH US {NT Saints} would they {OT Saints} be made perfect!�
Actually there are many similarities between Revelation 20:11-15 and the Judgment of **ALL** the lost in Matthew 25:31-46 on the Day that Jesus comes again:
Matthew 25:31-34,41,46: �**WHEN** the Son of Man {The Lamb} comes in His glory, and all the **ANGELS**:angel::angel: with Him, He will sit on **HIS THRONE** in Heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him and He will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on His right and the goats on the left.�
�*THEN* the King will say to those on the right, �Come you who are blessed by My Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.� {The New Jerusalem with its New Heaven and New Earth�See Rev 21:1-5 & 2 Peter 3:10-13}
�**THEN* He will say to those on His left, �Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.� ....�*THEN* they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.�
Compare with Revelation 20:11-15: "Then I saw a great white **THRONE** and Him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from His presence {See 2 Peter 3:10 and I Cor 15:20-24}, and there was no longer any sea. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the **THRONE**, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life {See Daniel 12:1b,2}. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them and each person was judged according to what he had done {See Rev 22:12} Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life {See Daniel 12:1b,2}, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
{The book of life is actually the Lamb's book of life as per Rev 13:8 & Rev 21:27}
We can see that in Rev 22:12 and 2 Corinthians 10:5 that all the saints will be rewarded by Jesus on the same day as His second coming **ACCORDING TO WHAT HE HAS DONE**:
Revelation 22:12: Jesus says, "Behold, I am coming soon. My rewards is with Me, and I will give to everyone **ACCORDING TO WHAT HE HAS DONE**."
2 Corinthians 5:10: "For we must all appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ, that each one will receive what is due him for the things done in the body, whether good or bad."
God's Word confirms many times that **ONLY JESUS WILL JUDGE** all the lost; the living and the dead; and will reward the saints on the Day He comes **ACCORDING TO WHAT HE HAS DONE**. {See John 5:27-30; Jude 14,15, 2 Tim 4:1; Romans 2:16; Acts 10:42 & Acts 17:31 & Rev 22:12:
Acts 10:40,42: �God {The Father} raised Him {Jesus} from the dead... He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that He is the One whom God {The Father} has appointed as Judge of the living and the dead.�
Acts 17:31: For He {The Father} **HAS SET A DAY** when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising Him from the dead.
2 Corinthians 5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done in the body, whether good or bad.�
Rev 22:12: Jesus says, �Behold, I am coming soon. My reward is with Me, and I will give to everyone **ACCORDING TO WHAT HE HAS DONE**.�
The pre-tribbers claim that this will occur 3 � or 7 years **BEFORE** the Last Day of the Great Tribulation right after a secret silent rapture. However in Matthew 16:27 Jesus prophesied, �The Son of Man is going to come in His Father's **GLORY WITH HIS ANGELS**, and **THEN** He will reward each person **ACCORDING TO WHAT HE HAS DONE**.� Four other times in God's Word it mentions the Second Coming of Jesus on the **LAST DAY** of the Great Tribulation in **GLORY WITH HIS ANGELS**. Matthew 24:30,31; Mark 13:26,27; Matthew 25:31 & 2 Thess 1:7
2 Thess 1:1,6-10:� �To the *CHURCH* of the Thessalonians�God is just; He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well.� This will happen *WHEN* the Lord Jesus is *REVEALED* {See I Peter 1:13} from heaven in blazing fire **WITH HIS POWERFUL ANGELS**. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.� They will be punished with everlasting *DESTRUCTION* and shut out from the presence of the Lord *ON THE DAY HE COMES* to be glorified in His holy people!!�
Matthew 25:31-34,41,46: �**WHEN** the Son of Man {The Lamb} comes in His GLORY, and **ALL HIS ANGELS:angel::angel: WITH HIM**, He will sit on **HIS THRONE** in Heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him and He will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on His right and the goats on the left.�
�*THEN* the King will say to those on the right, �Come you who are blessed by My Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.� {The New Jerusalem with its New Heaven and New Earth�See Rev 21:1-5 & 2 Peter 3:10-13}
�**THEN* He will say to those on His left, �Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.� ....�*THEN* they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.�
Revelation 20:11-15: Then I saw a great white **THRONE**{Matt 25:31} and Him {Jesus-Matt 25:31 & Acts 17:31} who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled away from His presence {See 2 Pet 3:10 & Rev 21:1} And I saw the dead standing before the **THRONE**{Matt 25:31}, and the books were opened. Another Book was opened, which is the {Lamb's} Book of Life. The dead were judged **ACCORDING TO WHAT THEY HAD DONE**{Matt 25:35-40} as recorded in the Books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged **ACCORDING TO WHAT HE HAS DONE**{Matt 25:41-45}. Then death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of Fire. If anyone's name was not found in the {Lamb's} Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.�{See Matt 25:41!}
So God's Word definitely shows that only Jesus will reward His saints and judge the lost on the Last Day when He comes **IN GLORY WITH ALL HIS ANGELS**:angel::angel:{As per Matthew 16:27; 24:29,30; 25:31} or **WHEN HE IS REVEALED FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS POWERFUL ANGELS** :angel::angel:as per 2 Thessalonians 1:1,6-10!!
Jude there is one thing I will agree with is and that is this you did mention one of the raptures, but I will not be in that one. I plan on being yonder.
WE ARE ALL EAGERLY WAITING FOR OUR GLORIOUS ETERNAL RENDEZVOUS WITH JESUS! �
�
I Peter 1:13: �Therefore, prepare your minds for ACTION, and set your hope *FULLY* on the grace to be given YOU when Jesus Christ is **REVEALED**
. I Cor 1:7: �YOU do not lack any spiritual gift as YOU eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be **REVEALED**.�
Now the pre-tribbers claim that this glorious *REVEALING or *REVELATION* of Jesus will be *CONCEALED* BEFORE the beginning of the Great Tribulation.� However, every other time the Word *REVEALED* {Greek-Apocalipsis} is used related to resurrection events it refers to the glorious REVEALING of Jesus on the *LAST DAY* of the Great Tribulation {See 2 Thess 1:7-10 & Luke 17:26-31}. And *CONCEALED* is the exact opposite of **REVEALED** and **APPEARED** according to every dictionary!� Titus 2:13:
Titus 2:13: �**WE** wait for the *BLESSED HOPE*�the glorious **APPEARING** of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. �Hebrews 9:28 �Jesus will **APPEAR** a 2nd time to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him!��
Matthew 24:29,30: Jesus says, �IMMEDIATELY AFTER the distress of those days {The Great Tribulation} the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky. At that time the sign of the Son of Man will *APPEAR in the sky and the nations will *SEE* the Son of Man COMING on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory!!�
I John 2:28: �Dear children, continue in Him, so that when He *APPEARS* WE may be confident and unashamed before Him at His COMING!� {See 2 Thess 1:7-10; I Tim 6:14; Heb 9:28 & Col 3:4}�
2 Tim 4:8: Paul said, There is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on THAT DAY�and not only to me, but to *ALL who have longed for His *APPEARING*!!�
2 Thess 1:1,6-10:� �To the *CHURCH* of the Thessalonians�God is just; He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well.� This will happen **WHEN** the Lord Jesus is **REVEALED** {See I Peter 1:13} from heaven in blazing fire�.� He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.� They will be punished with everlasting *DESTRUCTION* and shut out from the presence of the Lord ***ON THE DAY HE COMES*** to be glorified in His holy people!!�:applause:
A meeting at an appointed place and time is called a RENDEZVOUS. We have a RENDEZVOUS with eternity at the glorious **APPEARING** and **REVEALING** of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ *IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Great Tribulation.
Bahira you know you are in the habit of going behind prophet and exalting him in the error, thus making you guilty of the same sin, so question what is your motive?
Those who are not christians or not able to do it, they should get right with God through repentance and true faith in God Jesus.
Because God is going to judge them soon:
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.
I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.
He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.�
And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.�
Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
�I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.�
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened.
And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life.
And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20,21,22
Galatians 5
Christian Liberty
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free,[a] and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
Love Fulfills the Law
7 You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is.
11 And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased. 12 I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off!
13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: �You shall love your neighbor as yourself.�[b] 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!
Walking in the Spirit
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[c] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[d] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ�s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
Knowing God Through Love 1 John 4
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
Obedience by Faith
20 If someone says, �I love God,� and hates his brother,:devil: he is a liar:devil:; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? :angel:21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.:hearts::purpleangel:
God does not consider truth a sin nor does your application of misrepresented facts make truth, it is only by the word of God, it is true that the truth in lieu of a lie does insult some people, that is not the point, the point is the word of God is truth and not the opinion of man, there is no love when man, continually misquotes the lord Jesus.
