Thread: Romans 13 and Obedience To Possible Government Control of Alternative Media
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Romans 13 and Obedience To Possible Government Control of Alternative Media
Posted : 17 Jun, 2011 06:50 AM
Romans 13 and Obedience To Possible Government Control of Alternative Media
Again, as has happened before, the CDFFF system asked me for my user name and password when i finished this post, but when I typed them in, my post had disappeared. Fortunately i didn't write the post here on CDFF.
Romans 13 and Obedience To Possible Government Control of Alternative Media
In 1954 the federal government made it possible for churches to tax exempt from paying taxes to the Internal Revenue Service (IRS)
The 501(c)(3) IRS incorporated "church" has since then become a creature, or to
be more exact, a "body," a corpus, which is what a corporation is, of the Federal Government.
Although almost never applied by the executive branch before the Clinton and George W. Bush
administrations, in the past 20 years the provision that a church can lose its 501(c)(3) status for
certain political activities has been enforced a few times. For example, Texe Marrs, who at first had a
501(c0(3) status, was visited by FBI agents and told he must stop his criticism of some of the lesbian
women in the Clinton camp, and some other things Texe had been saying. Texe was
able to drop out of the tax exempt program without losing his ministry. The takeover of the Indianapolis
Baptist Temple in Indianapolis, Indiana by the feds in February of 2001 at the very start of the George W. Bush
regime is more complex than the church saying things the feds did not like.
http://www.cuttingedge.org/News/n1472.cfm
"FEDS Seize Indianapolis Church For Back Taxes", NewsMax.com wires, February 13, 2001...Ending a 91-day standoff, federal marshals seized Indianapolis Baptist Temple for back taxes Tuesday [February 13] and removed praying church members." The church tried to get out of its IRS tax exempt status but did not do so in a way that enabled them
to avoid paying federal taxes, and so the feds just took the buildings owned by the church.
According to Black�s Law Dictionary a corporation is "an artifical person or legal entity created by or under the authority of the laws of a state; an association of persons created by statute of a legal entity"
A corporation is under the government which incorporates it, and the church corporation must have an agent who represents the interests of the government. This agent apparently can be an attorney, but often it is the preacher of the church. So, the Christian IRS incorporated 501 (c) (3) "church" becomes an entity of the state and its preacher is an agent of the state, rather than of Jesus Christ.
According to http://www.thewordsofeternallife.com/state_church.html
The IRS makes a conditional contract with the church when it grants the church tax exempt status. Some of the
conditions the church must agree to are:
1." You can not criticize any other faith group, cult, or religion;
2. Do not discourage young women from getting an abortion, or endorse the pro-life movement;
3. Do not identify homosexuality as a sin and an abomination to God;
4. Do not appeal to peoples� emotions by employing an evangelization method (such as "fire and brimstone" preaching) not considered a "reasonable approach" by the IRS;
5. Do not discuss or identify threats to Christianity;
6. Do not highlight or otherwise bring attention to immorality of public officials or corruption in the government, or a particular bill, or act;
7. Do not support home schooling;
8. Do not advocate or teach any Bible doctrine that is politically or religiously incorrect, or is inconsistent with any "public policy" (abortion, gay rights, etc.) currently being enforced by the IRS."
Even before the IRS incorporated status of the American "church," many churches had been teaching that Romans 13 means Christians should always obey the government.
But when the federal government a few years ago began to actually enforce
the conditions under what an incorporated church must operate for a few churches to send
others a message, the urge to obey the government became much stronger for church Christians.
Now, the question is, if the govrenment decides to supervise alternative media to prevent that media
from saying something the government does not like, is the church to support the government in this?
Almost all of what is called alternative media is Internet media.
Reports from "alternative media" people who have for years covered the yearly meetings of
the ruling elite - who include the financial elite, the big bankers, called the Bilderbergers - have said that this year
in Switzerland they have indicated they want to deal with the alternative media, that is, Internet media.
The elite's war on alternative media would probably include the very many Internet broadcasters and the great number of web sites and blogs which are not now supervised by the federal and state governments. The goal of the elite would be to stop alternative media from saying things that the controlled media never says, and to re-establish
the controlled media - the TV news, most FM and AM radio news, magazines, etc - as the totally dominant media for the dumbed down people.
There appears to be sort of the beginning of a rebellion against the big international bankers in some of the southern European countries, as shown by the protests against the Bilderberger meeting in Switzerland recently, etc. The elite tend to start wars in order to divert attention of the public away from any rebellion against the rule of the elite. The U.S. may start a third ground war in Libya soon, for example.
I suspect that most of the preachers and churches will keep silent on the issue of government control and censorship of the alternative media, that is, the Internet media. Don't rock the boat.
Romans 13 and Obedience To Possible Government Control of Alternative Media
Posted : 17 Jun, 2011 07:33 AM
I don't know what to say about other nations, but I am American and we have a Constitution, and that means that ANY government official is to be bound by it.
This nation is an experiment in LIMITED government, and the founders literally built into it THE RIGHT to dissolve the government, by force if necessary, and install new representatives who will OBEY the Constitution.
George Washington said that the difference between the American Christian and all others is that we would rather die standing up, than live on our knees before tyrants.
Romans 13 and Obedience To Possible Government Control of Alternative Media
Posted : 17 Jun, 2011 07:33 AM
I don't know what to say about other nations, but I am American and we have a Constitution, and that means that ANY government official is to be bound by it.
This nation is an experiment in LIMITED government, and the founders literally built into it THE RIGHT to dissolve the government, by force if necessary, and install new representatives who will OBEY the Constitution.
George Washington said that the difference between the American Christian and all others is that we would rather die standing up, than live on our knees before tyrants.
Romans 13 and Obedience To Possible Government Control of Alternative Media
Posted : 17 Jun, 2011 12:55 PM
It must also be understood and known that NOT ALL large or small churches and/or ministries are under the 502(c) 3 filings. It would have been nice Halfback, had you also included the resaon WHY some churches and ministries file the 501 (c) 3... as to give a fair and balance view of this process.
It is the choice of the church's leadership, not a demand of the IRS Tax exempt. Churches and ministries are already tax exempted as a religious group without the filing of the 501 (c) 3, there is no government demand from government for churches and or religious non-profit groups to file such.
The only requirement that is necessary is that they be filed with the States and registered with the local govenrment, not the federal government. Filing with the state and local government is required for ALL busineses. And when churches and ministroies do such, and upon such filing the state recognizes the church or ministries and they are given a number which can be used for tax exempts of paying taxes when purchasing material or items in local stores and doing business for the church or ministry or whatever.
Many churches and ministries file the 501 (c) 3, so that they may be able to accept large donations and for the filing of those who make large donations, so that those who make such are able to have these deductions on THEIR taxes... churches are not requred to even file taxes unless they or known and/or have received a large donation, and/or if they are involved in for-profit business within the church, which is also legal... to my knowledge...the 502 (c) 3 is for the benfit of the church and all non-profit organizations, and it does not stop anyone who is serious about speadign and teaching and preaching God's holy Word from doing such...
As with anything, when you become involved with an organization you must follow the rule of the organization, just as God has written His rules in His word for Chrstian to follow... no one can go around breaking rules of the government or this site, orof the church bylaws, or of God and expect help in the time of troubles and /or want things to go their way. Rules are rules...
And if a church or ministriy or a nonprofit organization wishes to receive large amounts fo donation for the spreading of God's word, and for the building grow of their church, or own land, or for nonprofit work and would and need the hep of the government financially they must be filed under the 501 (c) 3, IRS tax exempt, and obey the RULES set before them on the dotted-line... its no more that fair and orderly and decent according to God's word.
Romans 13 and Obedience To Possible Government Control of Alternative Media
Posted : 17 Jun, 2011 01:00 PM
that should read of NOT paying taxes when purchasing items and materials or whatever... churches and ministries don't pay taxes, even if they do not have an IRS 501(c) 3, they are automatically exempt as a religiousorganization, but they must be registered and filed with their state and local government as a religious group or church or ministry...
Romans 13 and Obedience To Possible Government Control of Alternative Media
Posted : 17 Jun, 2011 03:29 PM
"It must also be understood and known that NOT ALL large or small churches and/or ministries are under the 502(c) 3 filings. It would have been nice Halfback, had you also included the resaon WHY some churches and ministries file the 501 (c) 3... as to give a fair and balance view of this process.
It is the choice of the church's leadership, not a demand of the IRS Tax exempt. Churches and ministries are already tax exempted as a religious group without the filing of the 501 (c) 3, there is no government demand from government for churches and or religious non-profit groups to file such. "
Did you do a search on the Internet to get some idea of what percentage of churches are incorporated under IRS 501(c)(3)?
That the federal government does not require churches to be under the IRS tax exempt status makes the position of the churches with almost all of them being under the IRS much worse. If the government did require them to be incorporated under the IRS, then the churches would have an excuse for doing so.
If churches and ministries are, as you say, already tax exempted as religious groups without the filing of the 501(c) (3) stratus then why did Texe Marrs have to start paying federal income taxes after he dropped his tax exempt status, and why did the feds take over the Indianapolis Baptist Temple in 2001 when they did not pay federal taxes after they tried to get out of 501(c) (3)?
It doesn't matter much to me that you want to support the IRS incorporated tax exempt status of churches. But what is a little more important is that some, or many, on this forum will believe you have made points in support of this incorporation. And you haven't really done so.
Romans 13 and Obedience To Possible Government Control of Alternative Media
Posted : 17 Jun, 2011 04:37 PM
Halfback,
No, I didn't check the internet, I know these thing from working with churches and filing for those who would like to have a 501 c, 3 tax number.
The other reason I know this information is because I have a ministry started about seven years ago, so yes, I have done my research into this, and have all the forms to file for my 501 c3, but since I am not receiving large donantions nor do I have large assests, I have no need to file the 990 form for tax exempt.
Plus, I work with churches and ministries helping those who would like to be incorporated for 501 (c) 3, I write their incorporation paperwork up for them. I do their bylaws and articles of Faith and everything needed for 501 (c) 3 filing.. There are many churchse who do not have the 501 (c) 3, and these churches cannot accept very large donations or large financial gifts, and the resaon is becasue they will have to give the donors an IRS tax exempt receipt so the donorcan file for tax deductions
I work with three churches now, one has been an established church for 46 years, another one for 52 yrs. and a ministry and none of these have 501 (c) 3... this is not a requirement for a religious, nonprofit organziation or ministry or church unless they are going to be receiving large sums of donations and have a certain amount of assests... then they must have their 501 c 3 in order to receive such large donations for deductions of the donor tax exempt number and filing.
Romans 13 and Obedience To Possible Government Control of Alternative Media
Posted : 17 Jun, 2011 04:55 PM
Marrs most likley had assests that were for profit, which a church can own, and received donations that he did not give account of to the donors. if a donor wishes to file their donation for a deduction, they must have a nonexempt tax number of the donoation or they ewill not receive the credit...this is when IRS will began to atke a look at the non-profit organization to whom the donantion was given.
If you donated $5,000 to your nonprofit church or organization, and then tried to get a tax deduction, IRS is goung to audit my records and come looking for your records, becasue I must also file the 501 c3, tax number in order to get my deduction. A person can get a deduction for a charitable donation to a church or whatever non profit , if its over or aorund $200.00, and the church or organization must also have a number for that deduction for the IRS or they will most likely be an audit...
Also, many churches file for 501 (c) 3, becasue the government has many faith-based financial grants to assist nonprofits, churches and ministries with community basd programs, and this is another reason why many churches and nonrofits are filing for their 501 c3 tax ezempts, which take a long time to get once you have filed. It is very difficult for a church or nonprofit or ministry to start needed community outreach programs and keep them going without this financial help from the givernment...
So the Feds(Justice Department) provide such funding to nonprofits and churches to help with the budget of these program. But they must have a 501 c3, in order to be approved and awarded these gvernment grants. And the Feds, will also come in and do an audit whenever they feel or think there is a need to make sure the mmoney and program is running as it should. So I would suspect there is more to Marrs case than meets the eye...
Romans 13 and Obedience To Possible Government Control of Alternative Media
Posted : 17 Jun, 2011 05:16 PM
Halfback, I just really noticed your last few words about the many and some on this forum thinking I support the IRS in this...
Halfback, now you know me long enough to know I would care less about what others think of me or about what I believe... lol... I believe in following the rules, especially when you have nothing to do with making the rules and still would like to enjoy the benefits of systems who has made the rules... lol
If churches, and nonprofit organizations and ministries want the benefits of being tax exempt and the funding of the givernment for outreach programs churches and ministries cannot afford. Then they must abide by the rules of the system and that means filing to be incorporated and getting a 501c3 tax exempt number, so those who give donations can receive thier tax deductions for thier money or gifts in kind that they have given... no more than fair and just... but you're right, many churches like those BIG donations, so they file and then don't like the rules of the government.
Speaking of research you can go the the IRS charitable page and read about what is required and the rules of churches a=and nonprofit oranizations filing, As well as find ifnormation about how to file for a 501c3, and order they will send you one of their pacjets, free of charge, and you will see how much apaperwork there is for filing and the COST to file for a 501c3... lol
Romans 13 and Obedience To Possible Government Control of Alternative Media
Posted : 17 Jun, 2011 06:11 PM
"Marrs most likley had assests that were for profit, which a church can own, and received donations that he did not give account of to the donors. if a donor wishes to file their donation for a deduction, they must have a nonexempt tax number of the donoation or they ewill not receive the credit...this is when IRS will began to atke a look at the non-profit organization to whom the donantion was given. "
Tex Marrs is not a church. His ministry comes closer than any others I know with just a few exceptions to the example of the groups of Christians that met during Paul's ministry. But Marrs has a following and was on short wave and I think on some FM stations for years. Now he is on the Internet as a broadcaster. He has expenses for air time and printing costs, and he receives donations. He was not audited by the IRS, but received a visit he said by the FBI, mainly because he had written a book called Big Sister Is Watching You' on Janet Reno and Hillary Clinton, and often criticized these two lesbians on his radio program. Texe said the FBI agents told him he could not criticize them as long as he had his IRS tax exempt status.
I didn't get into the issue of whether scripture would oppose a Christian ministry and group having become incorporated under the IRS, that is, under the federal government with the restrictions the government places on what the ministry can say and keep their tax exempt status.
If you should happen to want to see a glimpse into the kind of meetings the early Christians held during Paul's time read I Corinthians 14: 26-29. Because of what is said there about the participation of the groups, these must have been small groups. Of course, a huge mega-church could divide its members into small groups, and in fact the Rick Warren mega-church movement is said to do that and use an encounter group type of deceptive dialectic attitude change procedure, which is far from what was going on in Paul's groups.
The scriptures that are relevant to larger Christian groups now called "churches" that place great importance on having a building, and on other things that cost a lot of money are:
Acts 7: 48 "Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,"
Acts 17: " God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;"
So the issue of the IRS incorporation as a 501(c) (3) "church" is whether it is so important to be able to give Christians a tax break for their donations that the "church" has to abide by the restrictions on what the preacher says and what the "church" stands for. These restrictions include not preaching against homosexuality, lesbianism, cannot discourage a woman from getting an abortion, and cannot bring attention to immoral behavior or corruption by government officials, etc, etc.
Almost all these restrictions ago against scripture. The preacher and the "church" who agree to these restrictions in this kind of
deal or contract is already apostate - if they know what they are getting into. Or, they have been deceived, or the preacher has deceived the group or the smaller group in charge of this kind of thing. For either case, it is not following the Lord.
Romans 13 and Obedience To Possible Government Control of Alternative Media
Posted : 17 Jun, 2011 06:24 PM
HalfBack, Thanks for this eye opening post. A guy just the other day was telling us something about it would soon be against the law to preach against homosexuals and other things God doesn't approve of.
I will point out your post to him.:glow:This must be what he was referring to.
