Find out what the Greek word ekklesia means. Its the word translated as church in the King James Version and in most other English translations after 1611.
William Tyndale was the first to create an English translation using Hebrew and Greek manuscripts. His English translation of 1522 used
Erasmus�s Greek New Testament, known as the Textus Receptus.
Tyndale did not translate ekklesia as church. Instead, he translated it as congregation. And this is correct. Ekklesia means an assembly.
When John Darby and his associates the Plymouth Brethren in England starting in the 1830's and passed on by the late 19th century to C.I. Scofield in America created the theology called dispenationmalism he and other dispensationalists took the word "church" and said the "church" stands as a second and independent group of God's people. The dispensationalists teach that the Jews remain the chosen people contradicting scripture (I Peter 2: 9 and Paul in Romans and Galatians).
The "congregation" or "assembly" of the Israel of God (Galatians 6: 16) under dispensationalism became a concept than is claimed to stand alongside physical Israel, the Jews. But the New Testament does not use "church" in this way. You will find the Body of Christ or the saints in the New Testament to describe God's people, and a few times the "assembly" is generalized as a collective of assemblies. But the "assembly" or "congregation" is not used to point to a group of people who are different from
the Israel of God, or born again Israel.
What is missed in the use of the congregation as a group who stands almost equal to the Jews by dispensationalism is the transformation of physical Israel under the Old Covenant to Israel reborn in Christ in the New Covenant.
In the Old Covenant, everything was physical and literal. - entry into Israel was by having the literal and physical DNA from Abraham, that is, being his physical seed. Circumcision was done on a part of the physical body of male Jews. The temple in Jerusalem was a physical building.
Under the New Covenant circumcision is done away with and Paul opposes it. The physical seed of Abraham becomes his spiritual seed (Galatians 3: 29), and the physical temple - hieron - is replaced by the bodies of believers now being the temple of God - the naos - in John 2: 19, I Corinthians 3: 16 and I Corinthians 6: 19.
This transformation of physical Israel to Israel reborn in Christ is predicted to occur in the Old Testament. " I will wipe Jerusalem as a man wipeth a dish, wiping it and turning it upside down." II Kings 21: 13.
"Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay..." Isaiah 29: 16
"O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as the potter? saith the Lord." Jeremiah 18: 1-6. God made one vessel and found it marred and made of the same lump of clay another vessel which seemed good to him as the potter.
Those under the influence of dispensationalism often have difficulty in reading the numerous metaphors in Scripture, even Paul's simple metaphor of calling Israel Jerusalem, for example in Galatians 4: 24-26.
So, Israel reborn in Jesus Christ is not the "church," because an ekklesia or congregation or assembly can be a group of Jews who reject Christ, that is, a synagogue, or it can be a congregation of those born again and children of God.
Also, since 1954 and the passage of legislation authorizing the churches to have IRS tax exempt status - 501(c)(3) - as incorporated bodies under the Internal Revenue Service, the "church" has taken on the meaning of being an incorporated body under the federal government. The federal government, not Christ, is then the head of the "church." The "church" is then under the First Beast of Revelation 13.
Sorry, Halfback, but I must ask you, if William Tyndale was the first theologian to put forth the Bible in english, then please tell me who is John Wycliffe?
I think maybe a research of this man would make things somewhat clearer as to who really brought forth the first english Bible.. It was John Wycliffe who first made the whole Bible available in english in 1380, the New Testament and the Old Testaments came about 2 years later.
Tyndale lived his life in hiding and before he could find anyone to publish his Old Testament translation, he was codemed to death for being a heretic, and only lived long enough to translate parts of the Old Testament, because he was killed and burned at stake, before he could find anyone to publish his whole translation of the Old Testament.
Also what is the definition of church and who does it consist of that make up a churh, since we know it is not just a building?
And is not a congregration made up of an assembly of those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ who are considered as being the CHURCH?... c'mon now... don't go confusing old people:excited::ROFL:..splain yourself.:laugh:
"William Tyndale was the first to create an English translation using Hebrew and Greek manuscripts. His English translation of 1522 used
Erasmus�s Greek New Testament, known as the Textus Receptus."
Don't misrepresent what someone says, or not read it carefully enough to know what was said.
On http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wycliffe
"Wycliffe was also an early advocate for translation of the Bible into the common language. He completed his translation directly from the Vulgate into vernacular English in the year 1382, now known as Wycliffe's Bible.["
The Vulgate is in Latin, by Jerome. The point i was making is that Tyndale was using the Greek Textus Receptus and translated the Greek word ekklesia as congregation.
It is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all Israelites truly belong to Israel, and not all of Abraham's children are his true descendants, but "It is through Isaac that descendants shall be named for you" [Gen. 21:12]. This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as descendants. (vv. 6-8)
"Not all Israelites truly belong to Israel," according to Paul, is a thesis that goes all the way back to the patriarchal period itself: the promise was made to Abraham and Sarah (not Hagar), so from the beginning election was not determined simply by ancestry, since according to law Ishmael would have been heir. (In fact, the law explicitly upheld the right of the firstborn even if the offspring was of "the disliked" wife rather than the "loved" wife [Deut. 21:15-17].)
The point is that election and the promise are God's to give, not the patriarchs'. Here, God is the father who bestows his inheritance to whomever he chooses. Hardly lost on readers to this day is the question Paul anticipates:
What then are we to say? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion" [Exod. 33:19]. So it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy. For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth" [Exod. 9:16]. So then he has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses. (vv. 14-18)
The apostle anticipates our perennial question whenever God's electing grace is discussed: "You will say to me then, 'Why then does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?'," offering anything but a rationally satisfying reply calculated to suspend our speculations: "But who indeed are you, a human being, to argue with God?" (vv. 19-20), especially when we consider that according to strict justice, God could have determined to leave all people under sin. Unconditional election proclaims God's unfathomable mercy.
So, embedded within Israel's national election (unconditional in its origin yet conditional in its maintenance) is the election of particular Israelites to inherit the promises made to Abraham and his Seed, who are by God's gracious decision, "objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles." Again, Paul is not inventing a novel doctrine of election but drawing on the remnant theology of the prophets:
As indeed he says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,' and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved'" [Hos. 2:23]. "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' there they shall be called children of the living God" [Hos. 1:10]. And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the children of Israel were like the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved; for the Lord will execute his sentence on the earth quickly and decisively" [Isa. 28:22]. (Rom. 9:23-28)
"Your theology sounds to me like the old lie the Nazis used. "
You don't want to say that. The Nazis were of Satan.
In defending dispensationalist theology which says the Jews remain God's chosen people, you are arguing against the New Testament.
"The dispensationalists teach that the Jews remain the chosen people contradicting scripture (I Peter 2: 9 and Paul in Romans and Galatians)."
See what I Peter 2: 9, Romans 9: 8, Galatians 4: 24-26 and Hebrews 10: 9 say. But usually people who refuse to give up the doctrines of dispensationalism will say "Sure, that is what Paul or Peter say here, but over here it says the Jews are still God's chosen people." Peter says "Ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood..." Was Peter saying "Ye" to mean the Jews who rejected Christ? Paul says "They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the Children of God..."
Scripture does not contradict itself, because if it did, then there is a big problem for the foundation of faith.
WILL GOD SAVE ALL ISRAEL BEFORE THE END OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION??
Luke 21:24: Jesus says, �Jerusalem shall be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are complete.� The Times of the Gentiles was from AD 70 to June 7th, 1967. The Jordanian Gentiles took control of Jerusalem in 1948 and destroyed 34 of the 35 Jewish Synagogues and booted out almost all the Jews from Jerusalem. Obama would like Israel to go back to their 1948 borders.
During the Great Tribulation Moses and Elijah will most likely witness miraculously to people in the uttermost parts of the earth in all 6,000 languages. Presently the Bible has been translated into about 2,000 languages from the inspired Greek and Hebrew manuscripts and faith comes from hearing or reading the sword of the spirit which is the Word of God. The Bible still has not been translated into about 4,000 languages and Rev 5:9b and Rev 7:9,13,14 must be completely fulfilled. Surely the courageous tribulation saints will help Moses and Elijah spread God's Word. They will do a fantastic job since according to Rev 7:9,14 there will be a great multitude from EVERY TRIBE AND LANGUAGE who will be �washed in the Blood of the Lamb� during the Great Tribulation.
Rev 6:9-11: When He {Jesus} opened the 5th seal, I saw the souls of those who had been slain {Just like Jesus} because of the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, �How long until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?� The each of them was given a *WHITE ROBE*, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed. Rev 7:9,13,14,15a,17a: �After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from *EVERY* NATION, TRIBE, PEOPLE AND LANGUAGE, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb {Jesus}. They were wearing *WHITE ROBES*�Then one of the {24} elders {Rev 4:4} asked me, �These in *WHITE ROBES*�who are they and where did they come from?�� And he said, �These are they who have come out of the Great Tribulation; {Martyrs just like Jesus} they have washed their robes and made them WHITE in the *BLOOD OF THE LAMB* {Jesus}. They are before the throne of God and serve him day and night... The Lamb {Jesus} at the center of the throne will be their Shepherd.� {See Rev 12:11 & Rev 13:8-10}
This passage in Rev 7:9 above shows that the Great Tribulation will be mainly for Christians in *EVERY Gentile nation and not just Jacob�s Jewish trouble which absolutely contradicts the main thesis of the pre-trib fairy tale. Revelation 14:13: Then I heard a voice from heaven say {During the Great Trib}, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them." Rev 12:11: �They {THE TRIBULATION MARTYRS} overcame him {Satan} by the *BLOOD OF THE LAMB* and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.�
Revelation 7:3,4: The angel said, �Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God,� Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the {12} tribes of Israel.
This event occurred just before the land and sea were harmed by the first 6 trumpet plagues in Rev chapters 8 & 9. Also occurring just before the first 6 trumpet plagues will be the scene in heaven above of martyrs from every nation in Rev 7:9-18. So it is completely obvious that the 144,000 Jews did NOT participate in the evangelizing of the Gentiles from every nation in the world. There are many who believe that the 144,000 Jews will then evangelize Jews through out the world and possibly only Jews will be saved during the rest of the Great Tribulation since Gentiles from every nation of the world will already be saved. According to Zechariah 12;10; 13:8,9: Two-thirds of the Jews will be struck down and perish but one-third will call on my name and will say, �The Lord is our God.�
Presently there are approximately 15 million Jews and about 2 % or 30,000 are Christians. During the Great Tribulation 10 million Jews will die and 5 million will be saved which is an additional 4 million 970 thousand {4,970,000}if 30 thousand are now Christians.
Romans 11:25-29: I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of Gentiles has come in {As per Rev 7:9,14 above}. And so **ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED**, as it is written: {In Jeremiah 31:33,34} �The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob {Israel}. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.� As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned they are loved on account of the patriarchs {Moses, Abraham, David ,Joseph, Isaiah, Elijah etc etc etc}, for God's gifts and His call are irrevocable. {Read Romans 11:11-32 and Hebrews 11:39,40}
God also inspired 40 Jewish men to write every Word in God's Word in both the OT and NT. Jesus was 50 % Jewish and is called the King of the Jews 12 times in the NT and the 12 Apostles including Paul were all Jewish who brought the Gospel to the Gentiles in the 1st Century. The Israelites are called Jews 80 times in the OT beginning with the book of Esther about 600 BC and the Israelites are called Jews over 200 times in the NT.
Acts 2:5: �Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.� And on the day of Pentecost 3,000 Jews were saved as per Acts 2:5,14,41. John 4:22b: Jesus says, "Salvation is from the Jews.!" Matthew 2:1,2: Wise men from the East asked, �Where is the One who has been born King of the Jews?� Matthew 27:11: Pilate asked Jesus, �Are you the King of the Jews?� �Yes it is as you say,� Jesus replied!
God said to Abraham, in Genesis 17:8: �The whole land of Canaan I will be give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you.�
Quotes from Obama:devil: on May 20th, 2011: �Israel must learn do defend itself **BY ITSELF**!!� �Israel must return to **PRE-1967 BORDERS**!!� Nations from all over the world have heartily agreed with King Obama's 2 statements including the European Union, Russia and the United nations. Obama has also stated that he does not have to abide by the War Powers Act or the Constitution in declaring war thus making Obama a King with the power to make war against anyone he desires as long as he desires!
When one takes specific words to research root meanings it makes for a good Bible study tool.
However......
When one takes specific words to research coming up with alternate root meanings outside of the context of the verse then interprets these words in a more literal sense than the author intended; they can make a verse convey a different meaning than originally intended.
This is what has been done with the word "church". The meaning of this word has evolved to such a point it can mean different things than originally intended.
The bottom line is how you choose to look at it : You either have the Gentiles grafted in making one people of God.
Or....
You have sheep not of this sheepfold making two people of God.
And the real, real bottom line is God will deal with spiritual Israel spiritually and physical Israel physically.
"Romans 11:25-29: I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of Gentiles has come in {As per Rev 7:9,14 above}. And so **ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED."
Again, if you are saying that Israel in Romans 11: 26 is that Israel which Paul calls in Romans 9: 8 "They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God," you are having scripture contradict itself.
All Israel will be saved because all who are saved are part of Israel, which is that Israel in Romans 9: 8 Paul calls the children of the promise who are counted for the seed.
Paul says in Romans 11: 20 that those of physical Israel who were in unbelief were broken off.
Matthew 8: 11-12 says the "... children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness..."
Who are the children of the kingdom? That couldn't be physical Israel because John Darby, C.I. Scofield, Lewis S. Chafer, Charles C. Ryrie and other theologians who follow dispensationalism say all the Jews, all living at some point in the end times, or some living in the end times will be saved according to their interpretation of Romans 11: 20 which contradicts other scriptures.
Are you now saying that the pre-tribulation rapture of the dispensationalist "church" is false?
Some who have been interested in the false doctrines of dispensationalism have predicted that when the tribulation hits or maybe right before it, many dispensationalists will bail out of the pre-trib rapture theory, but stick to Jewish supremacy, and the John Hagee crowd will be joined by the Mormons, most of those in the Hebrew Roots and Messianic Judaism movements etc to form the last days spirit of anti-Christ form of "Christianity,"
