I'm not sure what a Reformed Pastor teaches his congregation when it comes to unconditional election, as I've never sat under one of such teaching. I have spent some time going over the beliefs of Reformed Theology, more specifically the tenets [TULIP], and that which I read in this forum by our Resident Calvinist. But I got to thinking... what if I were not a Christian? What if I was an unbeliever, curious or searching for some truth and came upon this TULIP teaching and noted that I was created either for eternal life or eternal damnation, and no matter how I felt about it, or what I did, I had no choice but to be one or the other? As a Believer who does not agree with this Theology, there is no way I could fairly answer that question. So, I waited for an opportunity to ask an unbelieving coworker. I asked only one question and the short of the conversation was this -
Me - "What if I told you that you were created to be either eternally saved and going to Heaven or eternally condemned and going to Hell and that there was nothing you could do about it. Your fate, as it were, was sealed long before you were created. What would you think?"
Coworker - "Then it really doesn't matter how I live, does it?"
How true this is. If one is created condemned, it doesn't matter how he lives. He's received his death sentence long before he was ever created and performed his first sin in the flesh, and nothing he does can or will change that. He will give no thought to eternal consequence for it doesn't matter. On the flip side is the one that is created for eternal life unconditionally and not based on how he lives, what sins he has committed, how often, or for how long, and he too can live how he wishes because he has been chosen long before he was created to eternal life and there was or is nothing he can do about it. He's saved. It doesn't matter how he lives. And while either may not know to which they were created, both can live in their current sinful lives until which time the condemned dies and goes to Hell and the unconditionally elect is forced to believe and is Heaven bound.
Now you may think this was an unfair way to approach a person or present Reformed Theology, because after all you do preach Christ' death and salvation to those who believe, but I did not bring up where this theology comes from, nor any other belief system. My concern was the reaction and what a person would think if they came upon the TULIP teachings and that of Unconditional Election.
It's a dangerous thing for an unbeliever to say it doesn't matter how they live when it comes to eternity and be absolutely correct when it comes to Reformed Theology.
1.) Everyone who follows reformed theology follows tulip but not everyone who follows tulip follows reformed theology.
2.) Someone who is chosen by God will not live a faithless life until death and end up in heaven. The person would manifest faith in their life and seek to change their ways.
3.) Your reply should have then been �Yes it does matter because we do not know who is chosen. Anyone with faith in Jesus can enter heaven.�
I have been a Christian for 25 years. About ten years ago, my brother, who was not a christian, was working with me, and I was listening to some Bible teaching on cassette while we were working.
He asked some questions, about what the teaching I was listening to, and I explained to him about what the Bible teaches about unconditional election.
He got very angry about it, and later in the day, we visited my mother, and he asked her immediately if she knew "what your son believes about God?!"
Well, my mother was not a Christian either, and my brother explained unconditional election to her, and I only had to correct him on a minor point or two.
After he explained it to her, and let her know he was very angry about it, my mother looked at him and said:
"Well, if you are not a Christian, then why do you care?"
So, if a person does not believe in Jesus, and does not believe the Bible is true, then WHY would they care one bit about a particular theological point?
And by the way, no one in my family is saved, except God saved my brother, and he is walking with the Lord to this day.
This doctrine forms the revealed nature of God and man into odd shapes, different from the way Scripture describes them. I think this is why they call it Deformed Theology.
1. Regardless of who follows it, "Unconditional Election" is a dangerous doctrine that can influence one to live how they want because their lives and eternity are planned out from before creation, and how they live their lives has no bearing on this, whether for good or bad.
2. I am talking about prior to experiencing "Irresistible Grace". One can read the doctrine of Unconditional Election and think they are one of the two. They have a 50% chance of eternal life, a 50% chance of being condemned. So what the heck? No need to give it any thought because it's already been settled. I'm either created for hell, or one day I'll be forced to believe. In the mean time, whoop it up.
3. My coworkers know about my faith in Christ and I share it freely. Our conversation was not about that, but just my curiosity about what the reaction would be to my question. Besides, if I would have answered according to what you wrote, �Yes it does matter because we do not know who is chosen. Anyone with faith in Jesus can enter heaven.�, they would have asked if I believed that stuff about some being created for Hell and some being created for Heaven, and then relating that with my belief that faith in Christ leads to salvation, which I believe is for all who believe, not just some unconditionally elected.
James wrote - "So, if a person does not believe in Jesus, and does not believe the Bible is true, then WHY would they care one bit about a particular theological point?"
You'd be surprised. One thing I have learned since moving to the 'South' is that there are people who do not call themselves Born-again Christians, but call themselves 'Christians' that claim to believe in Jesus and what the Bible says, even though their lives may not appear as such.
Rom 9:21-23 KJV Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? (22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: (23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
James wrote -"So, if a person does not believe in Jesus, and does not believe the Bible is true, then WHY would they care one bit about a particular theological point?"
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Because these people believe just enough about what a "God" ought to be, they realize this doctrine is a attack on the 'Nature of God'
Calvinists always use Romans 9:20-22 as if that were the proof that God creates some for eternal life and some for eternal damnation, but that is not what that passage is about. God may use an evil man for His purpose, but God does not create evil men. I've seen James bring up Pharaoh and the fact that God hardened his heart, as proof that God does create vessels of destruction, or creates them eternally damned. But if you look at Pharaoh's life, you'll notice that God actually gave him the opportunity to repent or change his mind a few times. It is when we continually refuse to be obedient to God, our hearts can and do become hardened, and then God can and will make use of an evil person fit for wrath, showing His power, but in no way does He create that person evil.
I am quite familiar with Reformed theology since I went to Calvin College and my best friend was an Orthodox Presbyterian minister. The Reformed denominations in the USA are the Christian Reformed the Hyper-Calvinstic Protestant Reformed and the Orthodox Presbyterian.
The Reformed have a a very symbolic view of Revelation and believe that all of the time periods in Revelation are symbolic. Actually Luther did not believe that James and Revelation were part of God's Word and Calvin wrote an Institute on every book in the NT except Revelation and also did not believe that Revelation was part of God's Word. The Reformed preachers will never admit that Revelation is not part of God's Word since it is now included in all Protestant Bibles. However I have never heard a sermon on Revelation by a Reformed pastor.
This has always been very troubling to me because of Rev 22:16,18,19: Rev 22:16,18,19: Jesus says, �I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give *YOU* {The Greek for YOU is plural} this testimony {ALL OF REVELATION} *FOR* the CHURCHES.� This contradicts the ridiculous idea that Revelation, chapters 4-19, was not written *FOR* the CHURCHES! The word �CHURCH�is also not mentioned in 9 books of the NT: John, Mark, Luke, 2 Tim, 1 John, 2 John, 1 Peter, 2 Peter and Jude; and is not mentioned in the first 15 chapters of Romans and yet every word in all these NT books are �FOR THE CHURCHES�..... �I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book.� If anyone *ADDS anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.� And if anyone *TAKES WORDS AWAY* from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city which are described in this book.�
However, I believe that God Chooses us just like He chose Israel and then put His Spirit in us and the love of Christ constrains us to do good works. But the main problem with the Christian Reformed Church is that they usually only send their missionaries to Calvinstic Dutch areas and do not obey the Great Commission of Jesus in Matthew 28:18-20 and you sort of feel that they believe that only Dutch Calvinists are God's chosen.:bow:
Ephesians 2:4,8-10: But because of His great love for us, God who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions...For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is **NOT FROM YOURSELVES**, it is the **GIFT** of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are **GOD'S WORKMANSHIP**, created in Christ Jesus to do good works which God prepared in advance for us to do."
John 15:16: Jesus said to His Apostles "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last!" God also Chose Paul when he was on his way to persecute Christians.
John 6:44: Jesus says, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the Last Day."
In Rev 17:14 all of God's saints are named the CALLED the CHOSEN and the Faithful.
We are born again from "above" and if we are not called and chosen by God there is nothing that we or the church can do to save us. Salvation is not from works and is "NOT FROM OURSELVES" it is 100% **GIFT** from God. :angel:
